[Waaaaay OT but who cares its cool] We might be able to turn anything in Oil soon.

[Umbran]

It is an INERT gas. It CANNOT react with things.

You are correct, but (there's always a but)...

The chemistry of the upper atmosphere is not well understood. If you recall, certain chemicals were used as aerosol propellants and refrigeration fluids for many years, partly because they were largely non-reactive. Lo and behold, under the conditions found in the upper atmosphere, they do act a s a sort of catalyst for the destruction of ozone.

This does not say that large scale release of heluim would be a problem. A good scientist, though, doesn't say that an untested thing is safe. He says there's no known problem, because sometimes the universe throws you a curve ball. It's that never say never thing.

As for running out of fuseable hydrogen, sure, it can happen eventually. But then, the sun's gonna run out of it too, someday. We've got a lot of deuterium and tritium. Literal oceans of it.

 

[buzzard]

You are correct, but (there's always a but)...

The chemistry of the upper atmosphere is not well understood. If you recall, certain chemicals were used as aerosol propellants and refrigeration fluids for many years, partly because they were largely non-reactive. Lo and behold, under the conditions found in the upper atmosphere, they do act a s a sort of catalyst for the destruction of ozone.

This does not say that large scale release of heluim would be a problem. A good scientist, though, doesn't say that an untested thing is safe. He says there's no known problem, because sometimes the universe throws you a curve ball. It's that never say never thing.

Ok, so I'm gambling. I'm gambling on what I consider a sure thing, but I suppose it could be called gambling nonetheless. I'm reasonably certain that the helium would be lost to space before it could amass in any serious quantities.
Not that I imagine that a rock solid 1s orbital can do anything in any case.

buzzrd

 

[Umbran]

Not that I imagine that a rock solid 1s orbital can do anything in any case.

That 1s orbital is certainly rock solid down here, near sea level. There's not a whole lot around that's got the energy to shake it up.

However, helium can be ionized, if you hit it with powerful enough radiation. And guess what? The upper atmosphere, not being shielded by miles of air, has somewhat more powerful radiation than you find down here. It wouldn't stay ionized for long, but it might wreak a little havoc in the meantime.

Likely? Not in my opinion. Imaginable? Yes.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

A carbon sink is not just a reservoir! It's a reservoir that has a net uptake of carbon from the atmosphere. That's why it's called a "sink", and not a "source".

Examples of carbon sinks are growing forests (locks up lots of carbon as biomass in the tres and soil - doesn't really take carbon out of the carbon cycle, but at least out of the atmosphere), pumping CO2 into abandoned oil wells, absorption of CO2 in the oceans, etc.

Anything that sequesters carbon - like plastic in landfills that won't deteriorate for millions of years - could be considered a sink (although indirectly - it sequesters carbon that would otherwise wind up into the atmosphere, e.g. by burning trash). However, putting this already sequestered carbon back in the carbon cycle (by making fuel out of it, and then burning that fuel) would make it a carbon source! Just like pumping oil out of the ground is a net carbon source.

Not that I think it's a bad idea to do something about landfills mind you. Just wanted to get the semantics right...

The problem here is one of scale. To most people 1000 years is a long time, in terms of geology it is a blink of the eye.

So to the average person the 1000 years (this is a WAG dont correct my numbers please) that carbon stays locked in plastic is so long that we can consider it a carbon sink as it keeps that carbon out of the system.

In geological terms though that plastic is here and gone in a blink of an eye and isnt a true carbon sink at all.

In a way both of you are right. Yes reusing the plastic means less additional carbon pulled out of the Earth. But you are pulling it out of plastic form which is in itself inert for a fairly long period of time and thus already out of the system effectively.

 

[buzzard]

That 1s orbital is certainly rock solid down here, near sea level. There's not a whole lot around that's got the energy to shake it up.

However, helium can be ionized, if you hit it with powerful enough radiation. And guess what? The upper atmosphere, not being shielded by miles of air, has somewhat more powerful radiation than you find down here. It wouldn't stay ionized for long, but it might wreak a little havoc in the meantime.

Likely? Not in my opinion. Imaginable? Yes.

Considering the energy to knock off that 1s electron, by the time any helium gets ionized, every other gas in the neighborhood will already be in an ionic state, so I hardly think the helium will make any difference.

Of course statements like imaginable are relatively useless. Granted, if we apply statistical thermodynamics as our model, anything is possible. Energy could flow from cold to hot, mixes could spontaneously organize, and the Nuggets could be a good basketball team. However the chances of any of these things happening is vanishingly small, as is the chance of helium becomming dangerous. There are sufficient things to worry about in the world without promoting extremely unlikely bogeymen.

buzzard

 

[Umbran]

There are sufficient things to worry about in the world without promoting extremely unlikely bogeymen.

Yes, there are lots of things to worry about in the world. A great many of them arose because people didn't stop to think about the bogeymen they'd be summoning.

I am not "promoting" anything, other than forethought. History should have taught us that before we seriously consider systematically dumping large amounts of anything into our biosphere, we ought to give a good hard look at what might happen. An off the cuff, "I can't imagine anything wrong with that" doesn't count as a good hard look.

Oh, btw, I should perhaps mention that large amounts of the upper atmosphere are frequently at least partially ionized. That's what makes it occasionally radio-reflective, and allows for long-distance shortwave radio transmission...

 

[buzzard]

Yes, there are lots of things to worry about in the world. A great many of them arose because people didn't stop to think about the bogeymen they'd be summoning.

I am not "promoting" anything, other than forethought. History should have taught us that before we seriously consider systematically dumping large amounts of anything into our biosphere, we ought to give a good hard look at what might happen. An off the cuff, "I can't imagine anything wrong with that" doesn't count as a good hard look.

Yes but wasting time and resouces analyzing very low probability events detracts from the ability to deal with other issues. Sure, I could probably make a case that a kid better not pee in the ocean because he might kill all the fish, but it would be ridiculous. Worrying about helium in the atmosphere is much more akin to the kid in the ocean than to a real danger.

buzzard

 

[Lazybones]

A very interesting article, thanks for sharing it.

As I used to tell my students when I was teaching freshman history, it's an exciting time to be alive.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Let's take a look at a few things...
(No, I'm being lazy, so someone else can look up statistics to argue over)
Currently, the US produces hundreds of tons of garbage, weekly, that could be put into this thing and converted into more than just garbage.
Can this thing handle a couple of tons of plastic diapers? Used? Moldy after sitting in a landfill?
Think of the sizes of some of the major landfills. Now, reclaim that area.

Personally, I see this machine/factory as a blessing that the world is in sore need of.
Who cares that the offproduct is Carbon Black, used to make carbon rods, the carbon that holds together my knee and shoulder, or pencils.
That'll all be used, and eventually put into the machine again.

"It is every citizens duty to be rejoined with the machine when thier life is over. That which they have consumed, may be returned."-Chairman Senchi Yung, Ethics of Control-Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri

 

[Umbran]

Sure, I could probably make a case that a kid better not pee in the ocean because he might kill all the fish, but it would be ridiculous.

Wow, what a horrible analogy.

We aren't talking about adding a small amount of a substance into a comparatively botommless reservoir. In this instance, we're talking about what might happen when we pump the results of the entire world's power generation into the atmosphere - an atmosphere that is demonstrably vulnerable to human-population-scale outputs.

You say it wastes resources to look at things. Well, the value of such research depends upon the risk. Risk is a combination of the probability and the amount you stand to lose. The atmosphere is unique, and we die if we muck it up too much. Even with low probability, the risk is high. Thus, spending a little money and time before moving en masse to fusion power would be justified.