Wall of Force Questions 2

[andargor]

You have been Paxterized!

Actually, there is nothing indicating that a Wall of Force has any physical dimensions (other than an area of effect). It just has an effect, which is ,well, a wall of force. You hit it, you bounce back. It's not an "object". It doesn't have "edges", IMHO.

Andargor

 

[Davek]

It is not the edges that would cut you. It is your momentum forcing parts of your body unimpeded by the imovable object (Wall of force) to continue on, while those parts that are opposed by the wall of force would stop. With enought momentum, the two parts would separate.

The theory of very small objects like molecules and atoms existed as far back as the early Greeks, and possibly even earlier. Granted their understanding of these objects would have been somewhat different that our understanding, but it was an attempt to define basic building blocks that create all matter.

 

[AuraSeer]

Any game argument that depends on concepts like "momentum" or "kinetic energy," or any other aspect of physical science, is patently invalid. Modern physics is totally irrelevant to the world of the game.

If you've ever glanced at the rules it should be clear that the world of the game has different physics than our own. Take a look at the jumping rules, or falling damage, or the various teleportation effects. Momentum in the gameworld simply functions differently than we're used to.

To put it another way: it's bloody magic, man! When you're talking about magic spells, even the real basics, like conservation of energy, go straight out the window. It's nonsense to talk science in a discussion of magic, especially when you're dealing with a spell that creates physical impossibility.

 

[reapersaurus]

No, Norfleet, it is not permissible and legal by the rules.
BAH.

wow.
I wish I could get away with setting people straight like this.

I'd be accused of being elitist or something if I did.

Well done, and quite called for.

 

[Norfleet]

No, Norfleet, it is not permissible and legal by the rules. The rules, you see, presuppose a medieval (or at best, renaissance) level of knowledge.

And no scholar of those ages would have any compehension of monofilaments. Pre-renaissance, I doubt anyonw would have any conception of a molecule either.

In fact, even post-renaissance, with actual magic and the whole "earth/air/fire/water" conceptualisation of the elements fully vindicated by the existance of elemental planes of those same natures ... I sincerely doubt our modern concepts of molecular structure would EVER come about.

Actually, the concept of the atom was invented by the ancient Greeks, who existed in a timeperiod that predates the start of the typical D&D campaign.

And while mesh walls of force are a subject of debate on another thread, a more interesting case has come to mind: The messiness which occurs when a creature collides endwise with a perfectly standard wall of force, rather than into the face of one.

To put it another way: it's bloody magic, man! When you're talking about magic spells, even the real basics, like conservation of energy, go straight out the window. It's nonsense to talk science in a discussion of magic, especially when you're dealing with a spell that creates physical impossibility.

Oh, but that's the best part: The magic creates an effect which is physically impossible, under normal laws: We accept that it happens, because it's "magic". But what are the side effects of this? Fireballs don't happen in real life, but what would be the side effects if one did? If a fireball is lobbed into a room containing volatile flammables, there will certainly be collateral damage that is not covered by the standard 1d6/lvl ref half. If somebody interacts with a spell effect in a nonstandard way, something has to happen, but the rules no longer specify what. At that point, you pretty much have to fall back on some semblance of realism: You seperate out where the magic ends, and the real world takes over. Otherwise, your world no longer resembles a typical fantasy setting at all, which is the real world overlaid with magic, but instead some sort of disjointed, acid-trip fantasy.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Oh, but that's the best part: The magic creates an effect which is physically impossible, under normal laws: We accept that it happens, because it's "magic". But what are the side effects of this? Fireballs don't happen in real life, but what would be the side effects if one did? If a fireball is lobbed into a room containing volatile flammables, there will certainly be collateral damage that is not covered by the standard 1d6/lvl ref half. If somebody interacts with a spell effect in a nonstandard way, something has to happen, but the rules no longer specify what. At that point, you pretty much have to fall back on some semblance of realism: You seperate out where the magic ends, and the real world takes over. Otherwise, your world no longer resembles a typical fantasy setting at all, which is the real world overlaid with magic, but instead some sort of disjointed, acid-trip fantasy.

The spell write up, the rules as a whole even, are purposefully written as to describe the primary and usual effects of various activities. It should be obvious that they spend little effort on so-called "edge-effects" and "corner cases", in general. The assumption is the DM adjudicates weird cases, making up answers that feel fair and appropriate for his world.

IMNSHO, it is your version of D&D that is a disjointed acid-trip fantasy. You insist on injecting modern science and modern pseudoscience into the game willy nilly without concern for context.

 

[Norfleet]

A certain amount of realism, and therefore, science, must exist if the world is to function in a way which makes sense at all. Dropped objects fall. Combustibles ignite when engulfed in fireballs. Structures collapse when load-bearing members are destroyed or vaporized.

Some effects, on the other hand, don't really possess real-world counterparts. The only way one can evaluate their potential consequences properly and consistently *IS* to resort to science and pseudoscience based on the description of the effect. It's certainly possible to simply pull something out of a posterior bodily orifice, but you'll quickly run into cases where observed behavior contradicts known laws of reality, or previous rulings. I won't quite say that your way of doing things is wrong, but it's certainly not safe or stable over the long term. If players can't count on the game reality to behave in a manner which resembles the real reality, what you have left is something which cannot go beyond the level of a video game: Actions which fall outside the described rules are simply impossible. This, I feel, entirely cheapens the point of PnP roleplaying.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The lack of hemisphere doesn't bother me much - Resilient Sphere does the trick.

It doesn't matter if the ancient Greeks knew about the atom, they couldn't prove it, and furthermore most Europeans from the middle ages didn't know about it.

If the mage wants to use such real-life knowledge, he should remember that mixing bat guano and sulfur doesn't create a real-life Fireball.

 

[Pax]

Actually, the concept of the atom was invented by the ancient Greeks, who existed in a timeperiod that predates the start of the typical D&D campaign.

And they had no conception of it's actual size, other than "too small to see a single one alone".

Unike, say, modern-day people, who might be able comprehend the idea of a line "one angstrom in width" ...

Oh, but that's the best part: The magic creates an effect which is physically impossible, under normal laws: We accept that it happens, because it's "magic". But what are the side effects of this? Fireballs don't happen in real life, but what would be the side effects if one did? If a fireball is lobbed into a room containing volatile flammables, there will certainly be collateral damage that is not covered by the standard 1d6/lvl ref half. If somebody interacts with a spell effect in a nonstandard way, something has to happen, but the rules no longer specify what.

No, it's not true to say "somethign has to happen". D&D worlds, as presentd in the Core Rules, do not inherently have to share opur laws of physics.

And even if they did ... you'd have to prove how the spellcaster knew about that concept before I'd even consider not taking a Zippo to the character sheet.

At that point, you pretty much have to fall back on some semblance of realism: You seperate out where the magic ends, and the real world takes over. Otherwise, your world no longer resembles a typical fantasy setting at all, which is the real world overlaid with magic, but instead some sort of disjointed, acid-trip fantasy.

"Typical fantasy setting" is not the real world overlaid with magic; for that, you want to play something like Shadowrun, with a slightly lower technology level.

Verisimilitude does not require slavish adherence to half-understood pseudoscience. As for acid-trips: right now, I think you're on one.

A certain amount of realism, and therefore, science, must exist if the world is to function in a way which makes sense at all.

Not neccessarily true.

Dropped objects fall.

Not on the Astral or Ethereal planes, they don't. And I can give a perfectly non-science rationale for why things fall without wings or birds: the jealous spirits of departed winged creatures mystically push non-winged things to the ground so that only their kin and progeny can fly ... unless you placate or distract them through magical means. They are ordained in this task by the King of Birds, a greater god who has rendered them unharmable, undetectible, and immune to magical interference by almost all means. Poof, a nonscientific reason things "fall" when dropped.

Combustibles ignite when engulfed in fireballs.

No, they don't. A wizard holding his spellbook uner his arm, dressed in woolen robes, and holding a tankard of ale, who doesn't roll a 1 on his save ... has unburnt robes, an unburnt spellbook, an his tankard isn't a fiery, alcohol-fuelled torch.

Structures collapse when load-bearing members are destroyed or vaporized.

Not always ... and not even always so in REAL life, either. In some settings, perhaps vaporising the load-bearing members of SOME buildings ...

... sets the upper floors free to float away into the sky!

It's a world with magic in it; the so-called "laws of physics" don't have to be the same. As long as the setting is intrnally consistent, then, all's well.

Some effects, on the other hand, don't really possess real-world counterparts. The only way one can evaluate their potential consequences properly and consistently *IS* to resort to science and pseudoscience based on the description of the effect.

HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA ........ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rather, try "The only way one can evaluate their potential consequences properly and consistently [red]is to choose a rule that governs that aspect of the game world, and apply it consistently and constantly.[/red]"

It's certainly possible to simply pull something out of a posterior bodily orifice, but you'll quickly run into cases where observed behavior contradicts known laws of reality, or previous rulings. I won't quite say that your way of doing things is wrong, but it's certainly not safe or stable over the long term.

Not safe, nor stable? Sure it is. Take notes. Write thigns down. Preferably, do all that before the campaign starts. It's all a part of this wee, little, oft-overlooked thing called [red]good campaign-world design.[/red] Try it sometime.

If players can't count on the game reality to behave in a manner which resembles the real reality, what you have left is something which cannot go beyond the level of a video game: Actions which fall outside the described rules are simply impossible. This, I feel, entirely cheapens the point of PnP roleplaying.

HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA ........ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the mage wants to use such real-life knowledge, he should remember that mixing bat guano and sulfur doesn't create a real-life Fireball.

Amen, brother!

 

[Norfleet]

Thank you for sharing the interesting details of your hypothetical campaign world. Tell you what: You run your campaign your way, with your bird spirits and antigravity buildings, and I'll run mine my way. I feel this is an arrangement that can be found to be mutually satisfactory.