(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Sorry, that applied to all dragons.
Anyway, comment removed.
Anyway, comment removed.
Last edited:
Wall of Thorns vs. a red dragon: did we do this right?
- Thread starter Pielorinho
- Start date
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
Please don't discuss features of red dragons; I want to know of general solutions to the spell, not specific ones that a red dragon might use.
Daniel
The thing I don't like about wall of thorns is that breaching it is specified in terms of time, instead of hardness and hit points like everything else. There's no way to speed up the process, which just feels wrong in terms of flavor. A Com1 with a butter knife can clear the thorns just as fast as a Ftr20 with an epic magic scythe. The breath of a great gold wyrm can burn down the wall in 10 minutes, but so can a 0-level ray of flame cantrip.
I don't think it's unbalanced for a 5th-level spell, compared to wall of force for instance, but I think the mechanics were not well thought out.
I don't think it's unbalanced for a 5th-level spell, compared to wall of force for instance, but I think the mechanics were not well thought out.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
AuraSeer said:
Interesting -- this is one of the things my DM brought up, and I tend to agree. What do folks think would be reasonable stats for the wall? I'm thinking they should be of a sort that an average magical fire would take 60 rounds (10 minutes) to destroy the wall completely.
What about giving it the following stats? I'm basing it on an edged weapon (say, a longsword) doing an average of 6 points of damage per swing, and carving through 1/5 of a 5' square in 10 minutes or 100 rounds.
Each 5' square of thorns has a hardness of 5 and 500 hit points. This is completely in keeping with the hardness of wood. Our longsword-wielder should be able to make it through a foot of this in 100 rounds. (I massaged my numbers above to get this to work, obviously
).Someone wielding a sample weak magical fire might deal 7 points of damage per round (e.g., flaming sphere), burning away one section in about 71 rounds or a little over 7 minutes. There are no clear rules for things catching on fire, but you could rule that magical flames can catch the whole thorny patch on fire, causing the whole thing to burn away in that same length of time -- or you could rule that the fire spreads at the rate of 5' every 5 rounds or so, giving a more realistic but also more pain in the butt effect.
Of course, the slow spread has a beneficial side effect: otherwise, a good druid tactic would be to cast wall of thorns on a bunch of enemies and then cast flame strike in the middle, setting the whole thing to a slow burn with the enemies trapped within.
I'd rule that the magical flames, after doing their initial damage, do 2d6 points of damage per round to the thorns as the thorns continue to burn. A dragon trapped inside would breathe over and over on the thorns, doing the bulk of damage that way; even in rounds where the dragon wasn't breathing, however, the thorns would continue to burn.
How does this sound to folks?
Daniel
Psi-Severed Head is right in that his comments apply to all dragons, of any color or age category.Pielorinho said:
Wall of Thorns is only effective against opponents with little magic. It's a fifth level spell that is easily negated by another fifth level (teleport), or even fourth level (dimension door and possibly freedom of movement, depending on the DM's interpretation of the latter). Magical fire completely destroys it, although that takes a long time. Even lower-level spells can blunt its effectiveness - boosting your strength and AC with magic, and adding in a haste will make it easier to push through the wall, reduce the damage from the thorns, and allow you to make more move attempts in a round. The dragon, if it had the right spells, should have been able to get out in a minute or two - or more, since it depends on just how many feet of wall it had to get past.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Spatula said:
True -- and for all we know, it did. We beat a pretty hasty retreat from there, not sticking around to find out how long the dragon remained entrapped; all we know is that five rounds later we were "safe" and the dragon wasn't following us yet.
Daniel
Sejs
First Post
Er, there exists a small difficulty with fire and how it interacts with Harness/Hp.
So, being on fire is 1d6 fire damage a round, yes? (p86, DMG)
And wood has a hardness of 5, with a variable ammount of Hp based on it's thickness, yes? (p136, PHB)
And objects take 1/2 damage from acid, fire and lightning. 1/4 from cold. Damage is divided before being applied against hardness and hp.(p135, PHB)
So you literally cannot burn any wooden object. Wood (and by extension, the wall of thorns) could not be destroyed by lighting it on fire and just letting it burn itself down.
Houston, we have a problem.
So, being on fire is 1d6 fire damage a round, yes? (p86, DMG)
And wood has a hardness of 5, with a variable ammount of Hp based on it's thickness, yes? (p136, PHB)
And objects take 1/2 damage from acid, fire and lightning. 1/4 from cold. Damage is divided before being applied against hardness and hp.(p135, PHB)
So you literally cannot burn any wooden object. Wood (and by extension, the wall of thorns) could not be destroyed by lighting it on fire and just letting it burn itself down.
Houston, we have a problem.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Pielorinho said:
I completely disagree with this approach. Wall of Thorns is a 5th level spell for chrissakes. How many hit points "should" a Wall of Force have?
The whole point of WoT is it is astoundingly difficult to muscle through. It is one of the Druid's best spells.
A Wall of Thorns can easily be defeated by 4th or 5th level magic. Or even by 3rd level magic (Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form). Any creature that lacks the ability to defeat walls is not in the least uber.
thegreatbuddha
First Post
Also, energy effects (fire) ignore DR & hardness.
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