Wall of Thorns vs. a red dragon: did we do this right?

[Nareau]

The DM weighs in...

I really don't like the spell mechanics here.

First off, I think the Wall of Thorns is far more powerful than its counterparts (Walls of Fire, Force, Ice, Iron, Stone). It does damage, it traps people, it's huge, and most importantly, it's shapable. A 9th level caster can fill 18 10x10x5 blocks. Compare that to:

a Wall of Iron (Wiz5)
9 5x5 planes, which is enough to create a wall 15' high and 15' wide. Str DC 29 to break through. Hardness 10, 60hp.

or a Wall of Stone (Clr5, Drd6, Earth5, Wiz5)
9 5x5 planes, but shapable. Must be merged into adjoining surfaces. Str DC 24 to break through. Hardness 8, 30hp.

or a Wall of Ice (Wiz4)
9 10'x10' planes, which is enough to create a wall 30' high and 30' wide. Or a hemisphere with a radius of 12'. 27 hp, Str DC 24 to break through.

Even the Wall of Force would be too small to capture a huge creature (as the hemisphere would only have a radius of 9', and huge creatures are generally 10' high or 20' long).

I have a problem with the lack of use of existing mechanics to deal with the spell. It's written so that it takes hours to to chop through, no matter who you are--even though it would take a power-attacking fighter less than a minute to hack through a solid Wall of Iron. And it makes no distinction between a dragon's breath and a Produce Flame.

I think it should have the benefits of being a huge area, shapable, and damage doing. I think it should have the detriments of being easier to get through (than the other wall spells). Heck, it might even be worth changing the duration to "Instantaneous".

I can see that this is one of the druid's best spells...in fact, it appears to be far better than any of his other 5th level spells. That tells me right there that there's something unbalanced with it.

So I propose (changes in bold)
Wall of Thorns
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Drd 5, Plant 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Wall of thorny brush, up to one
10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration: 10 minutes/level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
The wall of thorns spell creates a patch of very tough, pliable, tangled brush bearing needle-sharp thorns as long as a person’s finger. Any creature forced into or attempting to move through the wall of thorns takes 2d6 points of damage every round. Any creature taking physical actions within the area is also subject to this damage. A successful reflex save negates the damage.
The character can make the wall as thin as 5 feet thick, which allows the character to shape the wall as a number of 10-by-10-by-5-foot blocks equal to caster level x2. This has no effect on the damage inflicted by the thorns, but any creature attempting to break through takes that much less time to force its way through the barrier.
Creatures can attempt to destroy the wall. To make any progress, a creature must succeed at a Strength check (DC 25). A successful creature can destroy a 5' section of wall. A creature may also attempt to simply do damage to the wall. Each 5' section of wall has 20hp/caster level, and a hardness of 5. Of course, moving or attempting to move through the thorns incurs damage as described above. A creature trapped in the thorns can choose to remain motionless in order to avoid taking any more damage. Creatures casting spells, fighting, or taking other physical actions inside the thorns may be subjected to the damage.
Any creature within the area of the spell when it is cast takes damage (Reflex negates) as if it had moved into the wall and is caught inside. In order to escape, it must attempt to break through the wall (see above), or it can wait until the spell ends. Creatures with the ability to pass through overgrown areas unhindered can pass through a wall of thorns at their normal speed without taking damage.
The area of thorns provides one-quarter cover for every 5 feet of the substance between the character and an opponent—one-half cover for 10 feet of web, three-quarters for 15 feet, and total cover for 20 feet or more.
Fire does normal damage to the wall, and ignores its hardness. The thorns do not readily ignite, so flame must be applied every round in order to do damage to the wall.

Spider

 

[Nareau]

A couple of things that I (as a DM) didn't realize, and that probably ought to come into play:
Didn't even consider that a Dispel Magic might get rid of the wall. Thanks for pointing that out.
I think that the following should also come into play here:
"A common use of Strength is to break open doors and burst bonds. Larger and smaller creatures get size bonuses and size penalties on these Strength checks: Fine –16, Diminutive –12, Tiny –8, Small –4, Large +4, Huge +8, Gargantuan +12, Colossal +16."

Spider

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, energy effects (fire) ignore DR & hardness.

DR, yes; hardness, no (although Wall of Thorns vs Fire is an exception).

"Energy Attacks
Objects take half damage from acid, fire, and lightning attacks. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one- quarter damage to objects. Sonic attacks deal full damage to objects."

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

For obvious reasons, I don't like these changes at all.

First, I think the comparisons to other wall spells has some big holes in it. For example, compare to wall of force: can't be dispelled, prevents line of effect, can contain gaseous effects, can't be penetrated, can block incorporeal critters. I'd trade Wall of Thorns from my list for Wall of Force any day of the week.

Compare to Wall of Stone: highly shapeable, allowing for battlements and the like. Instantaneous, meaning it's undispellable. Useable as bridge, ramp, trap, or wall. For all practical purposes, invulnerable to fire (you have to do at least 18 points of damage to it to penetrate the hardness with one point of fire damage). I'd trade Wall of Thorns from my list for Wall of Stone any day of the week.

Compare to Wall of Iron: enough hardness that it's very difficult to injure it (the non-power-attacking fighter will be lucky to scratch it). Practically invulnerable to fire, for the same reason as above. Instantaneous and therefore undispellable. Can be pushed over on oponents for damage. Nice, but I'd prefer Wall of Thorns.

Don't compare to Wall of Ice: it's a lower-level spell.

With your changes, the spell is appropriate as fourth or even third level. It's certainly not as good as animal growth, awaken, control winds, insect plague, transmute rock to mud.

And keep in mind I've used the spell three times: once to no effect whatsoever due to the house-rule that damage-reduction protects against it; once to small effect to keep a couple mooks out of battle; and once to delay a dragon's attack on the party for a few rounds. I don't think that in play it's proven to be horribly uber either.

Daniel

 

[Nareau]

Well, your assessment isn't quite right:

once to no effect whatsoever due to the house-rule that damage-reduction protects against it;

That's not correct. I do have a hard time with DR not helping out against physical damage caused by spells, but that's another issue. The regenerating and very high AC of the targets was what prevented them from taking any noticable damage from the spell. Besides, you did slow them down long enough for the monk to do some damage to them with his bow.

once to small effect to keep a couple mooks out of battle

You kept 2 CR 8 monks completely out of that fight (killing one, disabling the other); they were the only combatants. Further, the fact that druids can slip through the spell with ease meant that you were able to walk right up to them and attack them. That spell was largely responsible for the ease with which you won that battle.

once to delay a dragon's attack on the party for a few rounds.

A dragon that wouldn't have fit in a Hemisphere of Force (and if it had, it would have been there for a 10th of the time...not to mention that had you chosen to stay and fight, the wall of thorns would allow you to attack the thing from a distance without any penalties. The wall of force prevents line of effect both ways...good to potentially trap spellcasters. The wall of thorns makes it virtually impossible for a melee character to do anything but suffer and die for 90+ minutes.)

Every casting of this spell so far has been pivotal in the battle. It has taken the targets completely out of melee. It has the potential to be a lot more effective still...heck, you could have just as easily taken out 2 of those dragons. I think that's a lot more powerful than most 5th level spells.

You do make a good point that Stone to Mud is also pretty powerful...it has a similar effect, but can be escaped much more easily, doesn't do damage, and can alternately be used in such a way as to cause damage.

Compare to Wall of Stone: highly shapeable, allowing for battlements and the like. Instantaneous, meaning it's undispellable. Useable as bridge, ramp, trap, or wall. For all practical purposes, invulnerable to fire (you have to do at least 18 points of damage to it to penetrate the hardness with one point of fire damage). I'd trade Wall of Thorns from my list for Wall of Stone any day of the week.

Sounds good. I'd be happy to make a swap like that...

Compare to Wall of Iron: enough hardness that it's very difficult to injure it (the non-power-attacking fighter will be lucky to scratch it). Practically invulnerable to fire, for the same reason as above. Instantaneous and therefore undispellable. Can be pushed over on oponents for damage. Nice, but I'd prefer Wall of Thorns.

Suffice it to say that any CR 9 melee creature isn't going to have a hard time overcoming that 8 hardness, and will likely be able to take down such walls in a matter of a few rounds. Certainly fewer than 100 rounds (which is how long it'd take to take out 5' of thorns).

Who exactly is going to be making that Str 40 check to push it over?

Spider

 

[Otterscrubber]

Is damage done to objects affected by whether or not the weapon is piecing, slashing or blunt? Seems to me that blunt objects would be more effective at breaking things, like walls of iron, than a sword.

 

[DMauricio]

Actually, I'd have said that piercing weapons would be better against a wall of iron.

But we're not talking about real-world science, so the Hardness rules will suffice.

I agree that Wall of Thorns should probably burn quicker when exposed to Magical Flame. 10 turns is probably a little much, though IMO most magical flame does not automatically set flammable things alight. Take fireball for example. (I don't have my DMG here so I'm not going to say its not possible)

Its really up to your DM's ruling on that one. And I can accept that Wall of Thorns can keep a huge red dragon at bay for 5 rounds (probably no more than 6 or 7)

A huge red dragon isn't the be-all and end-all of parties (specially not when it cannot use most of its abilities to full potential)

Why is it that most people think that dragons rock no matter where they are placed? In a big cavern where the dragon can use most of its abilities, yes, it will munch on most PCs of equivalent levels. But smartly played PCs shouldn't get beaten by a dragon with less CR than the party, specially when you are simply blocking the entrance to the dragon's lair. (you could have used Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron for that effect too - depending on how large the entrance is, and in either of those scenarios, the dragon couldn't dispell the wall even had it the ability)

Given the same situation, I'd have to say, that I would probably do the same thing. Block the tunnel to prevent the dragon from coming through, then scooting out of there till we could chose our own battle ground.

Hell even make our own favourable terrain with wall of stone (or stone to mud etc)


HTH


Dom

 

[Pielorinho]

A dragon that wouldn't have fit in a Hemisphere of Force (and if it had, it would have been there for a 10th of the time...not to mention that had you chosen to stay and fight, the wall of thorns would allow you to attack the thing from a distance without any penalties. The wall of force prevents line of effect both ways...good to potentially trap spellcasters. The wall of thorns makes it virtually impossible for a melee character to do anything but suffer and die for 90+ minutes.)

I'm not entirely clear on this. First, whether the dragon was held by the thorns for 100 minutes or 10 minutes was immaterial to us: once we'd held it for half a dozen rounds, we were as safe as we were going to get. Second, a huge dragon might roll poorly on its strength check a few times to get through the wall of thorns, but surely won't roll poorly for five rounds in a row. Assuming a strength of 26 (hardly unreasonable for a huge creature), it should only take two rolls of 15 or better to break free (assuming it climbs straight up out of the thorns). Compare to a wall of force: a dragon without teleportation magic or a burrowing speed would have no means whatsoever to get free from such a trap. And if you apply the +8 bonus for being huge and breaking free of bonds (a ruling I'll grudgingly admit is sensible), it could break free in one round by taking ten on its roll, as long as it went straight up.

Every casting of this spell so far has been pivotal in the battle. It has taken the targets completely out of melee. It has the potential to be a lot more effective still...heck, you could have just as easily taken out 2 of those dragons. I think that's a lot more powerful than most 5th level spells.

Again, I disagree. The first casting of it, versus trolls, was useless (I apologize for misremembering why it was useless): even the damage the archer did to the trolls was counteracted by their regeneration rate, and all the spell did was to delay the battle by several rounds. The second casting of it, versus monks, was indeed very useful, but no more useful than a wall of force would have been. And the third casting of it, versus the dragon, potentially protected us from a TPK but had no offensive value whatsoever, inasmuch as it prevented our melee fighters from closing and didn't block the dragon's breath weapon.

I use the spell far less often than I use flame strike and greater magic fang. Its utility is tactical rather than direct-damage. I'd hate to see the spell nerfed such that it no longer has much tactical utility. Nevertheless, if you'd prefer me to switch it out for Wall of Stone, I can handle that.

Daniel

 

[Spatula]

I agree that Wall of Thorns should probably burn quicker when exposed to Magical Flame. 10 turns is probably a little much, though IMO most magical flame does not automatically set flammable things alight.

Seeing as the wall is immune to non-magical fire, I don't think that this is out of line. Although instead of the flat 10 minutes, there should be some time given for burning through a 5' section of the wall. Most foes wouldn't be interesting in burning the whole thing down, just making a hole big enough to fit through.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Every casting of this spell so far has been pivotal in the battle. It has taken the targets completely out of melee. It has the potential to be a lot more effective still...heck, you could have just as easily taken out 2 of those dragons. I think that's a lot more powerful than most 5th level spells.

You clearly have little or no experience with 5th level spells.

I have a Wizard who uses Wall of Force almost every combat for exactly the purposes you describe. Dividing the enemy forces is a textbook strategy.

To be perfectly blunt, if you find walls so troubling then you badly need to learn more tactics.