Wand- Enervation+Improved Invis+Nondection=...

[KarinsDad]

And as we all know, the Sage is infallible. I would suggest people take more time to study issues themselves rather than try to rely on the dubious judgement of Skip Williams. Many times his rulings have no basis in the rules themselves, and appear to just be his preferred method of dealing with things. If you want to allow nondetection to neagate each and every divination spell, rather than those who act in a manner similar to the examples, thats all well and good, but please do it on your own reasonings instead of listening to that guy.

While I agree with some of what you say about the Sage, this is not a case where he is being arbitrary in my opinion.

And, I will gladly explain this based on my own reasoning.

"The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as ..."

"If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, ..."

Just because See Invisibility is not listed in the list of divination spells this protects against and See Invisibility is not titled Detect Invisibility, it is hard to fathom that See Invisibility is not a detection spell.

You state that it gives the caster enhanced sight.

Is it a transmutation spell then?

No.

It is a divination spell.

It does give the caster enhanced divination capability, the ability to see invisible creatures. If the invisible creature is protected against divinations, then a divination enhanced sight will not see the creature.

For that matter, Detect Magic is not a Divination spell, rather it is a Universal spell. But, a little common sense must be used here. They screwed up on Detect Magic and should have given it two schools of magic.


In any case, the problem with your interpretation is that it puts loopholes in the game.

DM 1: See Invisibility and Locate Creature automatically bypass Nondetection.

DM 2: See Invisibility can bypass Nondetection, but Locate Creature cannot since it is similar to the Crystal Ball scrying and Locate Object which are explicitly stopped by the Nondetection spell.

DM 3: See Invisibility and Locate Creature cannot bypass Nondetection, but Commune automatically can.

You see the point? If you do not interpret "If a divination is attempted..." to mean all divinations, then you open the door to forcing DMs to pick and choose, usually during game time, which divinations are stopped and which are not. This not only slows up games, but it also causes tension between DMs and players who think differently about it.

If you want to allow nondetection to neagate each and every divination spell, rather than those who act in a manner similar to the examples

The real problem is: which divinations are “similar to the examples”?

Should not all divinations that reveal direct information about the creature be stopped? Even Auguries should not include the protected creature (if the DC roll is not made) as part of the factors taken into consideration.

And, should it not stop Detect Magic which is not a divination?

In 3E, the philosophy is that ties go to the defender. Always error on the side of the defender.


Personally, as a player, if I put up Invisibility and Nondetection and my DM does not even roll the Nondetection DC, but just states that the enemy wizard starts targeting me, I'm going to get annoyed if the DM casually states that the Wizard used a Locate Creature or See Invisibility spell to find me.

To me, divination is divination is divination. Trying to dissect it into certain types of divinations which work where these "types" are not explicitly called out as game mechanics in the game is a mistake. That's just being arbitrary. IMO. YMMV.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Nondetection foils discern location, foresight (with respect to the warded creatyure), true strike, see invisibility, wish, magic missile, cone of cold, melee attacks, and Bluff checks.

huh?

magic missile? Cone of cold?
melee attacks? bluff checks?


discern location states IIRC -

"by no means short of deific intervention can this be stopped"

Wish isn't a divination IIRC... it is a universal spell - yes?

 

[CRGreathouse]

I was being sarcastic, M_J.

 

[KarinsDad]

huh?

magic missile? Cone of cold?
melee attacks? bluff checks?

I guess you did not take Sarcasm 101.

discern location states IIRC -

"by no means short of deific intervention can this be stopped"

Yup. Discern Location automatically gets past Nondetection. The reason it does it because it SAYS it does. Divination spells which do not have this type of caveat do not automatically get past the protection of Nondetection, you must roll the DC first.

There can always be an exception to the general rule.

Btw, does Discern Location automatically locate a character in an Anti-Magic Shell?

Well, it does if you take a literal interpretation of Discern Location. Some DMs might rule, however, that Discern Location cannot penetrate into the Anti-Magic Shell, hence, it cannot do so. I would not rule that way since even normal sight could see a character within the Anti-Magic Shell, but I can see a DM ruling that. I try to not interpret how the magic works, but rather what the magic does.

In the case of Nondetection, what it does is stop all divinations unless they themselves have a caveat to bust through it’s protection.

Wish isn't a divination IIRC... it is a universal spell - yes?

Yes it is. Nondetection does not stop Wish. However, I personally think (although this is not a literal interpretation) that Nondetection should stop Detect Magic which is also a universal spell since Detect Magic really is a divination, WotC just screwed up on it by not making it both universal and divination spell.

 

[Archer]

He was being sarcastic. Everyone is giving increased powers to non-detection and he was just taking it to another level.

Nothing short of an anti-magic shield blocks true strike or see invisibility.

 

[Henrix]

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detection spells.

That works for those of us who are not set on it working against (just) divination spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

He was being sarcastic. Everyone is giving increased powers to non-detection and he was just taking it to another level.

Nothing short of an anti-magic shield blocks true strike or see invisibility.

First off, who says that Anti-Magic Shield blocks True Strike or See Invisibility?

Who says that either of those spells enter the area of effect of the Anti-Magic Shell?

Secondly, I think people are taking the phrase "such as" too literally when it comes to Nondetection.

This phrase gives examples, but these examples are not all inclusive.

To me, any divination spell that "divines information about a target while the target is so protected" might get stopped by Nondetection.

It really is impossible to determine which information can get stopped and which cannot. If you assume that it is possible to determine which spells get stopped and which do not, then answer the following questions (assuming a failed DC roll):

1) Does Arcane Eye get stopped?
2) Does Locate Creature get stopped?
3) Does Detect Magic get stopped?
4) Does See Invisibility get stopped?
5) Does True Strike get stopped?
6) Does Prying Eyes get stopped?
7) Does Detect Evil get stopped?
8) Does Detect Undead get stopped?
9) Does Discern Lies get stopped?
10) Does Detect Thoughts get stopped?
11) Does Divination get stopped?

All of these spells give information about the protected creature. That's the definition of divination spells. The caster gains information that he might not be able to acquire without the spell.

How do you determine which information is protected against and which is not?

By the word "Detect" in the title of the spell?

Why would Nondetection protect against finding out the location of a character via Scrying, but not protect against finding out the location of a character in the next round for True Strike? The caster of the divination is finding out information about the target's location in each case.

Where is the line drawn for those of you who think that it protects against some divinations and not against others?

That's the biggest problem that interpretation has. It is very difficult to draw that line so that it is crystal clear and everyone understands it since it does not correspond to a game mechanic.


Protection From Evil does not protect on AC and saves against some evil and not others.

Resist Fire does not protect against some fire and not others.

Nondetection is not limited to certain types of divinations. The "such as" phrase is there to illustrate examples, not to limit the spell.

Think of Nondetection as Invisibility to Divination Spells if the DC is not made.

You cannot acquire information about the target. You cannot know that he is undead. You cannot know his location. You cannot know if he is carrying magic. You cannot know his thoughts. You cannot know if he is telling the truth or not.


Remember, there is a DC involved here. If you want to divine against a protected target, you could always cast mulitple divination spells and one of them may get through. This is not 100% protection, it is merely protection against 100% of divinations (unless they state otherwise in their spell description).

 

[James McMurray]

Nondetection is not limited to certain types of divinations. The "such as" phrase is there to illustrate examples, not to limit the spell.

If it is only there to give examples, it shouldn't have been put there at all. there is no reason to give specific examples if all divination spells are included, as it is extremely easy to determine whether a spell is divination or not.

I interpret it to mean that any spells which function similarly to the listed spells are possibly blocked. That would mean to me that any spells whose range is personal are not affected as they enhance the senses of the caster, and any whose range is not personal are affected, as they are actively seeking the target of the Nondetection.

 

[Shin Okada]

On the original topic, I can think of various way to counter you tactics,

*Invisibility Purge

It is an Evocation spell and thus Nondetection do not work against it. And it is a very, very popular spell.

*Snow, Sand, 5 inch depth of water, etc.,

This kind of thing can reveal your position. To avoid this, you must fly. That means you need another wand or something.

*A guy who have high Listen

Even if you are invisible, a man can detect your location by making good listen check. They have 50 % miss chance, but improved Invisibility is not make you completely invulnerable. Beware of Bards, Barbarians, monks, rangers & Rogues. They may have Blind-Fight feat, too.

*Monsters

There are a lot of monster which can overcome Improved Invisibility. Some have blind sight, some others have very high listen skill and Blind-Fight feat. Opponent may summon some of it, say, Fiendish Direbat. And some monsters are just immune to negative energy.

*Negative Energy Protection

Typical wand of Enervation only have CL of 7. I think if you are at the level that you can buy all of those wands, opponent cleric can negate your wand of Enervation without difficulty.

*Dispel Magic

Opponent can use area dispel. He may just dispel Nondetection, or other spells working on you, though.

*Ready action

Opponents can cast spell, fire missile weapons, charge, etc., when you shoot Enervation. Counter spelling Enervation, with a wand of Dispel Magic may work, too.

*You need 2 turns to prepare

As those spells have relatively short duration, you cannot cast on you 24 hours a day. So you meet an opponent and use two wands (Improved Invisibility & Nondetection) and make you first attack at the 3rd round of the combat. This kind of tactics seems great. But in many occasions, you cannot afford precious 2 rounds for preparation.

*Opponent may run/hide

Clever opponent may run, hide into darkness, etc., when he meat something he cannot attack. Your tactics need so many rounds to kill a opponent, so chance of escape is big. If he (or they) escape, you waste expensive charges of the wands.

 

[KarinsDad]

I interpret it to mean that any spells which function similarly to the listed spells are possibly blocked. That would mean to me that any spells whose range is personal are not affected as they enhance the senses of the caster, and any whose range is not personal are affected, as they are actively seeking the target of the Nondetection.

Again, I ask the very simple question:

Which spells are those?

My differentiator is divination spells which provide information about the target.

Scrying provides inforrmation on his location. See Invisibility provides information on his location. Detect Thoughts provides information on his thoughts. All of these are protected against. All of these can bust through the Nondetection by making the DC roll, hence, it is not overly powerful.

To me, it is just another protection like Spell Resistance or Resist Elements (although RE actually work slightly differently than ND or SR).

So, what is your differentiator?

What puts a divination spell on one side of the fence as opposed to the other side?

Note: Personal vs. non-personal does not really make much sense since it is ambiguous and arbitrary. See Invisibility affects the caster. He sees invisible. Detect Undead affects the caster. He detects the undead aura. Clairvoyance allows you to see in a given local, etc.