D&D 5E Wandering Monsters: You Got Science in My Fantasy!

[Mistwell]

What does it mean to say that something is "not fantasy," then?

It means you are aware when you are introducing a non-fantasy element into your fantasy game. For example, the authors of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks understood they were introducing science elements into the fantasy game when they wrote up that material from Metamorphosis Alpha for 1e D&D. It was done with a purpose, and an acknowledgement that they were elements which were not usual to the fantasy game. That awareness informed their choices, and it helped the Players and DM approach the material. They knew the perspective would be, "What happens when characters from a fantasy background come into contact with elements of a science fiction background?" That "otherness" was the whole point. The science wasn't just "another aspect of the fantasy realm", it was clearly different from the fantasy realm and therefore interesting for it's unique presence there.

 

[I'm A Banana]

"c" in this logic stream does not follow from a & b, as it is missing a crucial linchpin. You'd have to establish that "Fantasy RPGs cannot include a Science element of them".

This is established by Wyatt defining "the sciences of anthropology and psychology" as "not fantasy." Wyatt's definition excludes anthropology and psychology from fantasy, explicitly.

For additional emphasis:

That's not fantasy, frankly, at least not in its classic sense. That's the sciences of anthropology and psychology.

So, again, if D&D is a fantasy RPG, and fantasy is as Wyatt defines it, than D&D cannot include the orc baby dilemma (for instance), because that is, explicitly, by his definition, not fantasy. It is instead "the sciences of anthropology and psychology."

 

[Dausuul]

It means you are aware when you are introducing a non-fantasy element into your fantasy game.

You didn't answer my question. What does it mean to say something is a non-fantasy element?

 

[Mistwell]

This is established by Wyatt defining Fantasy as not including elements he defines as "the sciences of anthropology and psychology." The orc baby dilemma is in the category of those sciences, and, according to Wyatt, this means that they are "not fantasy".

Wyatt's definition excludes anthropology and psychology from fantasy.

For additional emphasis:

You seem to be saying that, because something is not part of what is defined as "fantasy" that means it cannot be used in a fantasy game.

I am not sure where you're getting this regimented way of looking at games, or entertainment in general, but it doesn't follow much of the time. A fantasy game can have non-fantasy elements in it, it's just an awareness that they are non-fantasy elements and therefore they should not dominate the game or be the majority of the game.

This message board is devoted to "RPG News and Reviews". That is the type of message board EnWorld is. That does not mean you cannot talk about topics which are not "RPG News and Reviews", it just means the majority of topics conform to those requirements, and when there is a departure it's well defined as being a departure. So, for example, we talk about the TV Show Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., even though it is not RPG news nor RPG reviews, but we do it in the forum set aside for such discussions, and we understand up front it's different from the normal RPG news and RPG reviews topics which form the mainstay of this message board. This doesn't suddenly make this not a "RPG News and Reviews" message board. It does not need to maintain absolute purity of topics to get those titles.

 

[Mistwell]

You didn't answer my question. What does it mean to say something is a non-fantasy element?

Simply that it is composed primarily of elements not found in the list of elements that makes up fantasy. If the word fantasy is to have any useful meaning, it's going to be composed of a list of elements, and that list inherently excludes some other elements.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You seem to be saying that, because something is not part of what is defined as "fantasy" that means it cannot be used in a fantasy game.

No, I am saying that if D&D is a fantasy RPG, and Wyatt's definition of fantasy is valid, then this means that D&D will not have the things he notes as "not fantasy," because then it would be violating the proposition that D&D is a fantasy RPG.

I've said this at least three times, so if you haven't got it by now, I don't see much of a need to continue to repeat myself. It doesn't seem like you're really trying to engage. One can perhaps suffice it to say that you don't know what I'm saying.

Imagine if sci-fi was invented 100 years before it was and we could have an RPG with Vulcans, Wookies, Daleks, T-800s, Replicants, and Cylons all in there by name.

One word: Steampunk.

 

[Mistwell]

No, I am saying that if D&D is a fantasy RPG, and Wyatt's definition of fantasy is valid, then this means that D&D will not have the things he notes as "not fantasy," because then it would be violating the proposition that D&D is a fantasy RPG.

I've said this at least three times, so if you haven't got it by now, I don't see much of a need to continue to repeat myself. It doesn't seem like you're really trying to engage.

And I've replied, but you keep cutting out or not seeing my reply. So, the frustration is mutual. I'll repeat the section you seem to have missed:

You seem to be saying that, because something is not part of what is defined as "fantasy" that means it cannot be used in a fantasy game.

I am not sure where you're getting this regimented way of looking at games, or entertainment in general, but it doesn't follow much of the time. A fantasy game can have non-fantasy elements in it, it's just an awareness that they are non-fantasy elements and therefore they should not dominate the game or be the majority of the game.

This message board is devoted to "RPG News and Reviews". That is the type of message board EnWorld is. That does not mean you cannot talk about topics which are not "RPG News and Reviews", it just means the majority of topics conform to those requirements, and when there is a departure it's well defined as being a departure. So, for example, we talk about the TV Show Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., even though it is not RPG news nor RPG reviews, but we do it in the forum set aside for such discussions, and we understand up front it's different from the normal RPG news and RPG reviews topics which form the mainstay of this message board. This doesn't suddenly make this not a "RPG News and Reviews" message board. It does not need to maintain absolute purity of topics to get those titles.

 

[Dausuul]

Simply that it is composed primarily of elements not found in the list of elements that makes up fantasy. If the word fantasy is to have any useful meaning, it's going to be composed of a list of elements, and that list inherently excludes some other elements.

You're talking in circles. A non-fantasy element is one that is not a fantasy element? That's not an answer, it's a tautology.

How are we compiling this list? What qualifies something to be on the list, or excludes it? Let's say I have horses in my fantasy setting. Are horses on Ye Olde Liste of Fantasy Elements? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[Mistwell]

You're talking in circles. A non-fantasy element is one that is not a fantasy element? That's not an answer, it's a tautology.

I'm not talking in ciricles, the entire article is devoted to listing those elements, and they've been repeated several times here. I didn't think you were asking me to repeat them yet again - what use would that be?

How are we compiling this list? What qualifies something to be on the list, or excludes it? Let's say I have horses in my fantasy setting. Are horses on Ye Olde Liste of Fantasy Elements? If so, why? If not, why not?

The authors of the game decide the list for the game, of course. And then, you can alter them, and add and subtract as you please. They're not even arguing "these other things cannot be in the game", but instead seem to be saying "these other things ARE OTHER THINGS, which doesn't mean you cannot use them in your game, just that when we refer to them, we know they are other things".

 

[Stormonu]

I once posed a question to some various players of RPGs: Why isn't there a Space D&D? Not Spelljamer or DragonStar, where fantasy gets shot IN SPACE, but a legit generic mishmash of sci-fi tropes smashed together like how D&D smashes fantasy and mythology together.

The best answer I ever got was that sci-fi, at least as we see it, is fairly copyrighted. For example, I'd wager Vulcan is just as recognizable as Elf is to the mass population. If you created a sci-fi game with Vulcan as a race, you would probably have most people, not just Trekkers, know what the race is, looks, and does. But, Vulcan is copyrighted to Paramount and probably never will lapse into the Public Domain, so a generic Vulcan race in a generic sci-fi setting will never happen. The best you could do would be take some element of it (such as pointy ears or logical thought) and build a new race around it or file off the serial number and rename them (Logicans), which loses the "I already know what that is" moment you get when most players hear "wizard", "dwarf" or "barbarian".

Imagine if sci-fi was invented 100 years before it was and we could have an RPG with Vulcans, Wookies, Daleks, T-800s, Replicants, and Cylons all in there by name.

One answer. Warhammer 40K.

Space elves, orcs, vampires (blood angels), werewolves (space wolves), undead (necrons), etc.