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D&D 5E Wandering Monsters: You Got Science in My Fantasy!

I have a real problem with being told such-and-such "isn't fantasy". That smacks of One True Wayism - it may not be your fantasy, but it might well be mine.

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Again, I think this is something that WotC would frankly do well to stay clear of - some groups will want a pseudo-science explanation for dragons, and orcs, and so forth; some will want pure fantasy. Unless WotC must answer that question, they probably shouldn't - provide support for groups who want to take both approaches, while favouring neither.

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If 5e is an attempt to reunify the fan base, they need to pitch a big tent, and not just in the rules.

Absolutely! I agree wholeheartedly.

Having some ecology vs mythical origin described in the MM is not bad, it can provide the DM with a starting point, inspiration, or even a default for beginner DMs or for DMs who want to run a fairly standard homebrew/undefined setting.

But D&D is a whole multiverse of settings, not just one setting. It simply cannot afford to force too much into every gaming group. In fact, the poll results on WotC website show an overwhelming majority of "depends on the settings" responses.
 

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delericho said:
I have a real problem with being told such-and-such "isn't fantasy". That smacks of One True Wayism - it may not be your fantasy, but it might well be mine.

(And that's something I really hoped WotC had learned from the controversy over the 4e DMG, and it's advice that particular types of encounters "weren't fun" - the underlying advice was actually good, but it got swamped by the controversy due to the authoritarian tone.)

Wyatt seems to have a real problem admitting that in this article. In fact, since he's also the source of the 4e DMG quote, Wyatt may have a real problem admitting that in general (or he may just be overly fond of broad, inaccurate generalization and gatekeeping). There is spear-rattling tribalism all over the article, staking out territory from the nefarious "other" of science-y explanation and keeping the interior of mythic high fantasy "pure" and untainted by it, telling us ignorant masses "how it is," as if he's got some super special genius snowflake insight into what I really want to do at my table. The entire tone is pretty unwelcome. It may be intentional to provoke discussion. It's got my hackles up (so, mission accomplished!), but I think it also obscures some of his better points (so, mission failed!).

In his daring rush to defend the walls against science-y flavor text, he's trying to liberate his definition of "fantasy" from anthropology, psychology, biology, evolution...but he seems baldly ignorant of the fact that fantasy is embedded in these contexts, not removed from it.

That mythic resonance he's all enamored of? That is psychology, and anthropology, and biology. I mean, why is immortals walking in the mortal world such an appealing idea? Derp, because of how we as humans deal with death and loss and the inevitable entropy of closed systems -- we use psychology and culture to imagine what it would be like to be liberated from our biology, but because our biology is part of what defines us, this makes a creature inherently other.

This is why they could really use someone on the team who knows what they're talking about when it comes to legends and culture (Resumes available upon request, guys. ;)).

The underlying phenomena in this article deserves a longer medium to address, but briefly, to his main topic headers:

Orc Babies is a matter of campaign tone. If I want a game with a theme of universal, omnipresent good vs. evil, having created or always-evil orcs works fine. If I want a game with more shades of gray and sympathetic villains and difficult moral choices, having orcs with some nuance and variety works better. At the other end of the continuum, if I want a modern game where orcs are just another flavor of humanoid (a la Eberron), I might get rid of alignment entirely and have orcs in the main cities. These are not choices the D&D designers need to make for me.

Dragons, Dragonborn, and Griffons: Created is fine for a game where I want involved deities and artificial beasts. If I want more of an "untamed world" feel, biology (or some fantasy version thereof) makes more sense. This is, again, a choice of tone, not a foregone conclusion that must be enforced.

Mos Eisley and Waterdeep: Elves and dwarves and halflings and gnomes may have mythic resonance, or they might not, again, depending on the feel I'm going for in my game. If it's important that I include those resonances, sure, they're useful, but they're not useful in every game, and it's possible that other races can gain this resonance, too, or not, as I see fit.

So in short, no, you can't tell me what I want out of the game's tone, you let me decide that for myself. I mean, maybe your basic game has a good mythic tone just because it's simpler to write and provides a compelling hook, and I'm generally cool with that, but don't make the mistake of assuming that this defines the brand. No. What defines D&D is that it can be mythic, or not, and it's up to me, not James Wyatt and his opinions of what qualifies as true fantasy or not.
 
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Remember how ancient scientists believed that mice spontaneously generated from grain piles, and maggots came from rotting meat? I was considering a world where orcs are just creatures that appear in deep caves under the ground. They don't breed or even really survive - they just erupt from the darkness below.
 

Some really tough questions in the poll this week. The one that really furrowed my brow was "how many humanoid races should D&D have?" Ultimately I settled on "about 15," but that's not really my answer.

It seems to me that there should be exactly as many humanoid races in D&D as can be reasonably differentiated in appearance and purpose, and not one more. Which is to say an infinite number, given that there is not a general failure of imagination. But there always is, isn't there?

As for orc babies and dragonborn mammaries, I have always believed and continue to believe that we have far more important things to discuss.
 

I prefer my setting without overt deities, and preferrably with conflicting origin myths for the races. And with at least some evolution sprinkled in.

Except for orcs. I have my own view of how orcs came to be.
 

I have a real problem with being told such-and-such "isn't fantasy". That smacks of One True Wayism - it may not be your fantasy, but it might well be mine.

Sometimes (like, "That's not D&D!") I'll tend to agree with you. But let's be clear: Words mean things.

"Science fiction" and "fantasy" are terms for genres. They are loosely defined, but they are defined. You don't get to call just any old thing fantasy just 'cause you feel like it. At least, not if you want to maintain understanding and ability to communicate. Would you walk up to someone and call their leg an arm because, well, it may not be an arm for them, but it is for you? Are their shoes now going to become gloves?

Moreover, there is no good reason I can see to insist on the matter. "Science fiction" and "fantasy" are not judgmental terms. It isn't like it is *bad* that there's sci-fi there. It isn't like there's value in purity, so why reject the notion that it is more of a science element than a fantasy one?
 

As for orc babies and dragonborn mammaries, I have always believed and continue to believe that we have far more important things to discuss.
Agreed. The pressing question is, "Can orc babies survive on a diet of dragonborn milk?"
 


I certainly have the origins of races mixed in many cases. Many races evolved and eventually created their Gods who came to be through pure belief and ascended members of their race, but some were created directly by Gods that just came before they did. Some evolutionary paths the races went through are different, while Humans have simian origins, Elves might have feline origins (and possibly Tasloi being their ancestors, the way Neanderthals are related to Humans), and Orcs might have Porcine origins.

While I've always been adamant that Orcs are just another humanoid race, with the corrupting influence of the Expansionistic Gruumshite religion and it's constant warfare against the more Neutral-aligned Shamanistic Orc culture that seem to drive them towards evil, I know that many DMs just want things to be simple for their campaigns and not to think of too much about such things.
 

I tend to reinvent everything from campaign to campaign, including changing up racial origins and sometimes completely reskinning particular races/monsters, so I'm not terribly bothered what happens in the official game settings. But I definitely think that presenting a mix of unique monsters, "created" monsters, and "naturally existing" monsters presents a series of good examples for newer DMs to work off of.

This is the ticket!
 

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