Wands? - Anyone use?

[irdeggman]

Well, I think this pretty much completes the discussion on those items in the DMG such as the Wand of Confusion. Sometimes, one creator alone isn't going to be enough.

Actually I think this is a false precept. IMO the way 3/3.5 rules are written what was intended was for a character to be multiclass in order tomake certain magic items.

In 2nd ed it required characters to cooperate since some races were limited to class and by class level. In 3.5 these restrictions do not exist, any race can be any level of any class. So using the ease of multiclassing concept it seems to me that WotC had originally intended characters to have to be multi-class in order to create certain magic items.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with this but it looks like that was the intent when all things are looked at together. I would rather see rules for cooperating and changing who pays the exp cost for creating magic items from the creator to someone else. But these currently don't exist in the core WotC rules. Maybe the Complete Arcane might address them (hope hope).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Actually I think this is a false precept. IMO the way 3/3.5 rules are written what was intended was for a character to be multiclass in order tomake certain magic items.

While I'm sure it was intended for multiclassing to also allow a single PC to accomplish the creation of some items, I'm not sure how one could argue that the designers did not intend for cooperative creation to be a part of the game, given the direct quote from the DMG posted above...

So here's another, similar question. Say, there is this wondrous item, which let's you cast hold monster at will, caster level 7th, market price 7x4x1,800gp. Can a wizard create this item?

Not for that price. His would be 9x5x1,800. For him it's not a 4th-level, and thus he cannot set the caster level at 7th. The minimum caster level for him to cast the spell is 9th, and for him the spell is 5th-level. The only way he could get away with it at the price mentioned would be to use bard-scribed scrolls every day.

I'm not the most learned when it comes to item creation, so perhaps there's something somewhere in the rules I haven't noticed that would convince me to change the way I handle it, but so far I haven't seen it.

 

[Thanee]

Well, this is the text of Craft Wondrous Item...

Benefit: You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.

...as opposed to Craft Wand...

Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level x the spell level x 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

The cost of a wand is set by the creator, the cost of a wondrous item by the item itself. The latter is, what I thought (in above post) is true for wands as well, but it seems to be different in exactly that way, which I find rather weird to say the least.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, to add to the confusion, there's also this quote:

Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for.

Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

This leads me to believe that a wizard would pay 5x9x1,800 for our hypothetical Wondrous Item of Hold Monster, but only be able to sell it for 4x7x1,800gp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This leads me to believe that a wizard would pay 5x9x1,800 for our hypothetical Wondrous Item of Hold Monster, but only be able to sell it for 4x7x1,800gp.

Pretty much - unless he found a buyer willing to pay the extra for the intangible benefits - higher caster level = better spell penetration, less likely to be dispelled, etc. - and how likely are you to find someone who:

1) Would find those differences important;
2) Would be willing to shell out multiple thousands of gold for those differences; and,
3) Would believe you when you say those differences exist?

Makes sense to me!

 

[irdeggman]

Well, to add to the confusion, there's also this quote:This leads me to believe that a wizard would pay 5x9x1,800 for our hypothetical Wondrous Item of Hold Monster, but only be able to sell it for 4x7x1,800gp.

This is for a found item and not for an item that is created. The rules for creating an item are pretty specific and based on the creator.

 

[irdeggman]

While I'm sure it was intended for multiclassing to also allow a single PC to accomplish the creation of some items, I'm not sure how one could argue that the designers did not intend for cooperative creation to be a part of the game, given the direct quote from the DMG posted above...Not for that price. His would be 9x5x1,800. For him it's not a 4th-level, and thus he cannot set the caster level at 7th. The minimum caster level for him to cast the spell is 9th, and for him the spell is 5th-level. The only way he could get away with it at the price mentioned would be to use bard-scribed scrolls every day.

What quote exactly? I haven't seen any that conflict with the assumption that the rules were designed with multi-classing in mind or that they were intended to allow cooperative item creation. To the contrary there are many rules that work against cooperative item creation - most specifically the exp cost.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This is for a found item and not for an item that is created. The rules for creating an item are pretty specific and based on the creator.

Except that the quote I gave is from the Creating Magic Items section of the SRD. You're right, they're pretty specific. They mention that PCs creating an item may pay different prices, but the market price is determined by the lowest denominator.

What quote exactly? I haven't seen any that conflict with the assumption that the rules were designed with multi-classing in mind or that they were intended to allow cooperative item creation. To the contrary there are many rules that work against cooperative item creation - most specifically the exp cost.

Hrm. I took your previous post where you said

Actually I think this is a false precept. IMO the way 3/3.5 rules are written what was intended was for a character to be multiclass in order tomake certain magic items.

...to mean that you didn't think the designers intended for PCs to cooperate when creating items, but rather only to multiclass. As Hypersmurf already provided a quote specifically mentioning cooperative item creation, I found this assertion spurious.

If I mistook your point and you were merely pointing out that multiclassing is also a viable option, then I concede and agree. Multiclassing is certainly also a means of fulfilling some of the cross-class requirements of certain items.

 

[irdeggman]

Except that the quote I gave is from the Creating Magic Items section of the SRD. You're right, they're pretty specific. They mention that PCs creating an item may pay different prices, but the market price is determined by the lowest denominator.Hrm.

Here is the quote from the DMG (pg 215)Market Price: This gold piece value, given following the word "Price", represents the price someone should expect to pay to buy the item. The market price for an item that can be constructed with an item creation feat is usually equal to the base price plus the price for any components (material or XP)."

And earlier on the same page under Magic Item Descriptions
". . .Some individual items, notably those that simply store spells and nothing else, don't get full-blown descriptions. Reference the spell's description in the Player's Handbook for details, modified by the form of the item (potion, scroll, wand, and so on). Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it, unless you choose to make it higher for some reason (which increases the cost of the item; see Table 7-33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."

Table 7-33 gives the rough formulas for estimation, as an example;

"50 charges, spell trigger {e.g., wands} Base Price Spell level x caster level x 750 gp example wand of fireballs"


Be careful when relying on the SRD as a rules base. It is real vanilla and a lot of info from the printed books was left out for one reason or another.

If I mistook your point and you were merely pointing out that multiclassing is also a viable option, then I concede and agree. Multiclassing is certainly also a means of fulfilling some of the cross-class requirements of certain items.

My bad it is in the DMG. I only wish they had added a feat to use someone else's XP to make an item.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would rather see rules for cooperating and changing who pays the exp cost for creating magic items from the creator to someone else. But these currently don't exist in the core WotC rules.

Maybe he's got me on Ignore?

[poke]

I give up.

-Hyp.