Want to make a mount-based Eidolon, have questions...

[RigaMortus2]

So I have a few quick questions about what feats are needed for making a summoner who has a mount-based eidolon, which will eventually be a flying mount-based eidolon...

I am looking to incorporate a few different attack options here, and I need to know what skills/feats/evolutions may be necessary.

For low levels (below level 5, before I can get Fly evo) I would like to make a standard mount-based eidolon I could ride on the back of and charge with a lance. I suppose I will need the Ride Skill and associated feats (Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge) if I really want to buff this up.

1) If I get the Fly evolution for the eidolon, does the eidolon need points in the Fly skill? Do I need points in the Fly skill if I intend to Fly mounted on the back if it? I am unclear if we both need to sink points into Fly. It seems kinda silly to me that a creature that can fly on its own would need to make skill checks for it.

2) Once my eidolon has Fly evolution, and I want to do a Fly-By-Attack from the back of the eidolon, what feats/skills will we both need?
-I know Fly-By Attack is a feat option for the eidolon. Would Ride-By Attack work as a feat for the summoner? Does one supercede the other? Do I need both?

3) If my eidolon has the pounce evolution, and I am mounted on the back of it, and it takes a full round action to charge, it gets all its attacks (because of pounce). Can I still make my attack from the back of it?

I may have other questions which I will re-post here as they come up.

 

[cattoy]

Sadly, I cannot answer any of your questions. I lost all interest in the class as soon as I discovered that you cannot take a bipedal eidolon with the mount evolution, thus preventing my gnome summoner from re-creating Master Blaster from RW Beyond Thunderdome.

 

[Dingo333]

So I have a few quick questions about what feats are needed for making a summoner who has a mount-based eidolon, which will eventually be a flying mount-based eidolon...

I am looking to incorporate a few different attack options here, and I need to know what skills/feats/evolutions may be necessary.

For low levels (below level 5, before I can get Fly evo) I would like to make a standard mount-based eidolon I could ride on the back of and charge with a lance. I suppose I will need the Ride Skill and associated feats (Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge) if I really want to buff this up.

1) If I get the Fly evolution for the eidolon, does the eidolon need points in the Fly skill? Do I need points in the Fly skill if I intend to Fly mounted on the back if it? I am unclear if we both need to sink points into Fly. It seems kinda silly to me that a creature that can fly on its own would need to make skill checks for it.

2) Once my eidolon has Fly evolution, and I want to do a Fly-By-Attack from the back of the eidolon, what feats/skills will we both need?
-I know Fly-By Attack is a feat option for the eidolon. Would Ride-By Attack work as a feat for the summoner? Does one supercede the other? Do I need both?

3) If my eidolon has the pounce evolution, and I am mounted on the back of it, and it takes a full round action to charge, it gets all its attacks (because of pounce). Can I still make my attack from the back of it?

I may have other questions which I will re-post here as they come up.

Alright, Feats: Go mounted Archery, yes it is more feat heavy to do archery and mounted, but you will be glad of it later

Answer 1: Yes the Eidolon needs points in fly. Ever see a bird flying backwards because of high winds? (I have) Just because something can fly in PF does not mean it is ducking and weaving all over.
You do not need fly yourself, hough you may wanna put points in it anyway. Always handy especially when you get wings for yourself.

Answer 2: Eidolon needs fly by, you need ride by (or archery)

Answer 3: Yes, just note that you only get 1 (unless you also have pounce somehow)

Recomondations: Make the Eidolon Medium and yourself small. Reduce person is great for this. You go small, you throw dagger, it goes back to medium and you gain the +2 (Size and better dex) to hit and +2 (size and batter dex) to AC. Add Iccicle dagger for a free dagger that will eventually return to you automatically. Medium also allows it to go underground which is where a lot of mounted focus characters get hung out to dry. (horses can't get down steps usually, and if they do, tight squeezes thwart them)

The Eidolon's AC does not matter too much, mounted combat basically says its AC is = to you ride check, a good AC is still nice, but it is a lower priority.

Reach with any of its weapons is a great way to pounce and not put yourself in danger (not to mention it now makes an impassible bodyguard when flight/mounted is not possible)

To save evo points, I recommend going flying spaghetti monster

Tentacles= to max attacks-1
Improved damage tentacle
pounce
mount
5 points at level 3

 

[RigaMortus2]

Thanks for the advice, but aren't tentacles secondary attacks? Wouldn't they take -5 to hit?

 

[RigaMortus2]

Also, at level 1, the quadriped has 1 bite attack and 2 limbs (legs) [meaning, 2 pairs of legs]

So it would be cheaper to spend 1 EP to buy claws (you get 2 claw attacks), pounce and mount.

I can then use Enlarge Person on the eidolon so I could mount it (since I am medium size), charge/pounce an enemy, which triggers all my attacks, the bite and 2 claws. I am capped at 3 attacks at level 1.

Maybe the tentacles will be preferred at later levels when I get more attacks.

I'd still like clarification though... Tentacles are considered "secondary" attacks, so would they not be subjected to -5 to hit?

 

[cattoy]

Also, at level 1, the quadriped has 1 bite attack and 2 limbs (legs) [meaning, 2 pairs of legs]

So it would be cheaper to spend 1 EP to buy claws (you get 2 claw attacks), pounce and mount.

I can then use Enlarge Person on the eidolon so I could mount it (since I am medium size), charge/pounce an enemy, which triggers all my attacks, the bite and 2 claws. I am capped at 3 attacks at level 1.

Maybe the tentacles will be preferred at later levels when I get more attacks.

I'd still like clarification though... Tentacles are considered "secondary" attacks, so would they not be subjected to -5 to hit?

I don't think you can cast Enlarge Person on a quadropedal eidolon.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I don't think you can cast Enlarge Person on a quadropedal eidolon.

Yes, you can.

Under Share Spells (Ex)

A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast this way must come from the summoner spell list.

 

[cattoy]

Yes, you can.

Under Share Spells (Ex)

A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast this way must come from the summoner spell list.

It is also part of the text for share spells that the summoner may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar...

Enlarge Person spell does not have a target of You.

Secondly, the summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).

Enlarge Person has a prohibition on casting it on non-humanoids, not outsiders, so this exemption does not appear to apply. The text specifically references the outsider status but not bipedal vs quadrupedal status.

 

[Systole]

That was my take on it. If there's errata somewhere, I'd love to see it, because I so want to cast it on my quadruped/pounce eidolon.

 

[RigaMortus2]

It is also part of the text for share spells that the summoner may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar...

Enlarge Person spell does not have a target of You.

That is a seperate sentence though. It is talking about casting personal spells (like Shield spell for example) that you can only cast on yourself. You can cast them on your Eidolon instead of yourself.

The next couple sentences then talk about the ability to cast other spells on your Eidolon that don't normally affect it, such as Enlarge Person.

So Share Spells does a couple things:
1) Lets you cast "personal" spells (those with Target: You) on your Eidolon, where normally you could not. And...
2) Lets you cast spells off the summoner list on your Eidolon that normally would not be able to affect it. Such as Enlarge Person.

Secondly, the summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).

Enlarge Person has a prohibition on casting it on non-humanoids, not outsiders, so this exemption does not appear to apply. The text specifically references the outsider status but not bipedal vs quadrupedal status.

Not sure you are understanding this point. There is a list of creature Types that one can be. Aberration, Animal, Construct, Humanoid, Outsider, Plant, Undead, etc... And bipedal and quadrapedal have no bearing here. They are not Types. They are Forms that the Eidolon takes. A Humanoid and Outsider are seperate creature types, that is what they are talking about here.

If you are one type, you can't be the other. So if you are Humanoid, you can't be Undead. And vice versa. If you are an Outsider, you can't also be Humanoid. Therefore, you are non-humanoid. Follow me so far?

An outsider IS a non-humanoid. Anything that is not a humanoid is a non-humanoid. Animals, Aberrations, Magical Beasts, Constructs, etc. are all non-humanoids.

So, since Enlarge Person doesn't have a Target: You, we know the first sentence doesn't apply to it and is not talking about it.

The rest of the sentences clearly point out that you can cast spells on your Eidolon that normally are not able to be cast on outsiders. Enlarge Person is on their spell list, and normally can not be cast on non-humanoids, but the Share Spell abilitiy breaks this general rule. It specifically calls it out.

Another example would be Magic Fang. If you took the Undead evolution, your eidolon would not be a "living creature", which is the target of the spell, but could still cast Magic Fang on it.