War?
- Thread starter Stormborn
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Henry
Autoexreginated
However, the 20th level wizard casting fireball is not doing his job - unless he's low on spells and that's all he has left.
The Fireball is the black powder bomb of the arcane arms race - low-level, crude, and ubiquitous. On the other hand, Meteor Swarm, Horrid Wilting, Acid Fog, cloudkill, greater planar binding, THESE are the spells that an Archmage committing to a battlefield would throw, REQUIRING another Archmage to successfully counter him. Conversely, having an archmage of that caliber in play would necessitate the other side to come up with special forces of their own (a team of mid-level rogues could possibly do it) to sneak in an eliminate the threat. Artillery won't do it; the mage can see it coming a mile away, and a simple invisibility would foil it. Assuming you don't have an equivalent spellcaster to cancel the threat, you fall back on, as it is referred to, "head-hunting."
The Fireball is the black powder bomb of the arcane arms race - low-level, crude, and ubiquitous. On the other hand, Meteor Swarm, Horrid Wilting, Acid Fog, cloudkill, greater planar binding, THESE are the spells that an Archmage committing to a battlefield would throw, REQUIRING another Archmage to successfully counter him. Conversely, having an archmage of that caliber in play would necessitate the other side to come up with special forces of their own (a team of mid-level rogues could possibly do it) to sneak in an eliminate the threat. Artillery won't do it; the mage can see it coming a mile away, and a simple invisibility would foil it. Assuming you don't have an equivalent spellcaster to cancel the threat, you fall back on, as it is referred to, "head-hunting."
ruleslawyer
Registered User
]The Complete Warrior actually has a pretty good section on this.
I'd say that given the flashy, boom-boom, Vancian nature of the D&D magic system, magic is pretty easily mapped on to technology, as others have posted. The only difference is that magic is just better. Wizards may be somewhat like stealth bombers, but they're stealth bombers that don't need laser-guiding, can fly as low as they like, and can do far more than just blow up soldiers and hard targets: They can charm enemy leaders into doing their bidding, raise dead enemy combatants to fight for them, gather information, etc. Simple qualities like DR 10/magic make individual monsters even less susceptible to attack than the average tank, since the means of penetrating DR probably would be less easily available to the common infantryman than would an anti-tank weapon or similar device. In general, the footsoldier just has it bad on the D&D battlefield. My guess is that the traditional approach to warfare in a high-magic campaign would be a blitzkrieg-type attack featuring only elite (perhaps summoned) monsters, high-level spellcasters and a few high-level warrior-types, with the standard footsolider serving more of a mopping-up function. Makes those orc hordes look much less deadly by comparison, no?
I'd say that given the flashy, boom-boom, Vancian nature of the D&D magic system, magic is pretty easily mapped on to technology, as others have posted. The only difference is that magic is just better. Wizards may be somewhat like stealth bombers, but they're stealth bombers that don't need laser-guiding, can fly as low as they like, and can do far more than just blow up soldiers and hard targets: They can charm enemy leaders into doing their bidding, raise dead enemy combatants to fight for them, gather information, etc. Simple qualities like DR 10/magic make individual monsters even less susceptible to attack than the average tank, since the means of penetrating DR probably would be less easily available to the common infantryman than would an anti-tank weapon or similar device. In general, the footsoldier just has it bad on the D&D battlefield. My guess is that the traditional approach to warfare in a high-magic campaign would be a blitzkrieg-type attack featuring only elite (perhaps summoned) monsters, high-level spellcasters and a few high-level warrior-types, with the standard footsolider serving more of a mopping-up function. Makes those orc hordes look much less deadly by comparison, no?
The big differences between modern tech and magic are as such:
1) Tech costs a lot more than magic. All of those smart bombs and tanks cost for every round they fire.. mages can replenish themselves everyday at no cost. In modern warfare you still see groups of guys on the ground because there's still a cost factor (and the fact that as the US learned in vietnam... if you don't put your guys on their soil that soil ain't yours)
2) Magic can be directly countered. A good offensive in modern warfare beats defense, we have good defensive measures but nothing perfect. A good defense in dnd can preety much negate magic if applied properly. Note that since we are getting to the age when EMPs may start becoming commonplace, will we start to see a reverse in tech to warfare?
1) Tech costs a lot more than magic. All of those smart bombs and tanks cost for every round they fire.. mages can replenish themselves everyday at no cost. In modern warfare you still see groups of guys on the ground because there's still a cost factor (and the fact that as the US learned in vietnam... if you don't put your guys on their soil that soil ain't yours)
2) Magic can be directly countered. A good offensive in modern warfare beats defense, we have good defensive measures but nothing perfect. A good defense in dnd can preety much negate magic if applied properly. Note that since we are getting to the age when EMPs may start becoming commonplace, will we start to see a reverse in tech to warfare?
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
I think you really need to assess just how common magic and other supernatural creatures are before you can really determine the effect of magic on the battlefield. Low magic settings will make magic or supernatural forces very expensive to risk on a battlefield and so conventional armies will the the norm. In extremely high magic settings, magic is effectively cheaper and large numbers of supernatural forces can be committed without making the war too expensive to pursue. In this case, with a lot of magic committed, then war can be significantly different... but it doesn't need to be.
If commiting mass numbers of supernatural or magical forces to a war is relatively new, strategic doctrine might not have caught up with the advance in war-making power. Think of the high costs of WWI. Advances in explosives and army recruitment structures led to massive armies with impressive firepower. Communications, however, lagged behind and battles had to be fought in an older mode involving detailed planning, careful timetables, and general inflexibility. It took the advent of tanks by the Allies and small-squad independence and infiltration on the German side to really shake up the war from the trench-based stalemate and into something more fluid.
Anyway, war may or may not be different with the addition of magic. It all depends on how much you're going to mix in.
If commiting mass numbers of supernatural or magical forces to a war is relatively new, strategic doctrine might not have caught up with the advance in war-making power. Think of the high costs of WWI. Advances in explosives and army recruitment structures led to massive armies with impressive firepower. Communications, however, lagged behind and battles had to be fought in an older mode involving detailed planning, careful timetables, and general inflexibility. It took the advent of tanks by the Allies and small-squad independence and infiltration on the German side to really shake up the war from the trench-based stalemate and into something more fluid.
Anyway, war may or may not be different with the addition of magic. It all depends on how much you're going to mix in.
silentspace
First Post
I think it would be rare for a high level mage to waste spells fighting first level warriors. It just doesn't serve much purpose. The first level warriors don't pose that big a threat. Instead, the spellcasters would save their spells and search out the tough guys on the opposing side. You don't see Gandalf fireballing orcs. Sure, he'd wipe out a few, but there would still be thousands left! Not efficient use of your spells, especially when the orcs don't pose much of a threat to him. (Plus, he's got whirlwind attack.) But does Gandalf magic up the balrog? You bet!
Compared to modern times, it would be like using stealth bombers to take out primitive tribesmen armed with spears. It's a waste of valuable resources. Just doesn't happen.
Compared to modern times, it would be like using stealth bombers to take out primitive tribesmen armed with spears. It's a waste of valuable resources. Just doesn't happen.
Numion
First Post
Stormborn said:
I'll do so anyway. Well, maybe not as an analogy, but here goes:
The inventor of modern machinegun, Gatling, was a pacifist. He observed that new implements in farming had allowed a lot of people to shift from agricultural jobs to industrial ones, because not as much people were needed to produce increasing amount of food. At the same time he was appalled by the high casualty numbers in american wars.
He put 1+1 together, and figured that if he made a really efficient gun, say one that did the work of 100 soldiers, only 100th part of the current number of troops would be needed to fight wars. Just like farming equipment had decreased the number of farmhands.
The rest is history. While modern railways enabled WWI, the machinegun was responsible for the incredible casualty numbers. Ironic, considering that machinegun was invented by a pacifist.
This has probably little bearing on the original question, but just to remind that sometimes it's safest to bet for the alternative that maximizes ensuing bloodshed. So I don't think magic would make field armies obsolete. Tactics would have to change, thats for certain, but you still can't occupy land with groups of special troops (or adventures), you still need masses of soldiers for that.
Vaxalon
First Post
Imagine, if you will, a troop of fifty archers. Each has a quiver of 20 normal arrows, but stuffed someplace secure, each one has a special Black arrow.
This arrow has, for example, an adamantine head, and +3/thundering (for example) enchantment. It's for use against heavy-duty monsters. It's not cheap, but it can save the day on a battlefield.
This arrow is analogous to anti-tank weapons used to protect infantry against armor on the battlefield. If a golem trundled over to a troop of archers armed this way, it's going to be hurting pretty fast.
Yes, there are special things that can show up on a battlefield that will be very dangerous to massed troops.
There are also countermeasures that can be taken against them.
This arrow has, for example, an adamantine head, and +3/thundering (for example) enchantment. It's for use against heavy-duty monsters. It's not cheap, but it can save the day on a battlefield.
This arrow is analogous to anti-tank weapons used to protect infantry against armor on the battlefield. If a golem trundled over to a troop of archers armed this way, it's going to be hurting pretty fast.
Yes, there are special things that can show up on a battlefield that will be very dangerous to massed troops.
There are also countermeasures that can be taken against them.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Actually, we used massive technology to take out "primitive" guerillas armed with AK-47s and simple waystations in Afghanistan.silentspace said:
As I hinted at before, Tolkien is a really, really, really bad example, since there is no real battlefield magic in Middle-Earth, unless you count Saruman's incendiary devices (which ARE used against fortifications and common soldiers at Helm's Deep). The D&D magic system is very different; if Gandalf were in the world of D&D, he'd build himself a nice cheap wand of fireball, turn invisible, get nice and high aloft, and blast orcs to bits. If the Balrog turned up, Gandalf would use his high-level spells, but he wouldn't really have a problem running out of low-level spells. ME magic is NOT D&D magic, by any means.
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