silentspace
First Post
ruleslawyer said:
Not sure if I would call RPG's 'primitive', but whatever.
War?
- Thread starter Stormborn
- Start date
Not sure if I would call RPG's 'primitive', but whatever.
silentspace
First Post
The point is that if something is not a threat to you, you're not going to bother taking it out if there is something else that is a threat to you. You're facing an enemy army. They have 1000 first level warriors, and a general surrounded by what look like clerics, wizards, whatever. Which would you take out? I'd go after the big guys. You might not. Do what you like. 
Sir Whiskers
First Post
Just off the top of my head, I think societies would react to high-magic in a number of ways:
1. MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. By mutual consent, high-level magic isn't used on the battlefied. If it is, the user becomes the target of every major spellcaster on the other side. Even if the user survives, every other power in the world hires high-level assassins to take him out. Life expectancy becomes very short.
The most common exception to this limitation: when the other side doesn't have a powerful deterrent. We end up with a situation where those with lots of magic power use it only against those who don't.
Another exception: monstrous predators, e.g., dragons.
2. Defense - Most magic is reserved to protect the army from enemy magicks. If both sides do this, the battle is usually resolved in a relatively historical fashion. The idea is that magic is so powerful, the other side can't be allowed the opportunity to use it, hence the near-total focus on defensive magic. One very common use would be for escape from a lost battle.
Given that, in DnD, offensive magic tends to be more powerful than defensive magic, this would require some new spells be researched, counterspelling feats become more common, etc.
3. Pseudo-Chivalry - The "knights" of the world are the pinnacle of military power. Though they may take hordes of peasants (or orcs, or undead, or whatever) along on campaign, the mooks aren't expected to be useful for much. The powerful characters spend their time fighting each other, usually in some formalized fashion. Use of "black arrows" (as another poster suggested) would be punishable by death, as the elite don't want to be threatened by their inferiors. Capture for ransom might be common, in which case flash-bang magic would be used less often than disabling/immobilizing magic. In effect, think of a world where the most powerful have "rigged the game" in their favor.
1. MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. By mutual consent, high-level magic isn't used on the battlefied. If it is, the user becomes the target of every major spellcaster on the other side. Even if the user survives, every other power in the world hires high-level assassins to take him out. Life expectancy becomes very short.
The most common exception to this limitation: when the other side doesn't have a powerful deterrent. We end up with a situation where those with lots of magic power use it only against those who don't.
Another exception: monstrous predators, e.g., dragons.
2. Defense - Most magic is reserved to protect the army from enemy magicks. If both sides do this, the battle is usually resolved in a relatively historical fashion. The idea is that magic is so powerful, the other side can't be allowed the opportunity to use it, hence the near-total focus on defensive magic. One very common use would be for escape from a lost battle.
Given that, in DnD, offensive magic tends to be more powerful than defensive magic, this would require some new spells be researched, counterspelling feats become more common, etc.
3. Pseudo-Chivalry - The "knights" of the world are the pinnacle of military power. Though they may take hordes of peasants (or orcs, or undead, or whatever) along on campaign, the mooks aren't expected to be useful for much. The powerful characters spend their time fighting each other, usually in some formalized fashion. Use of "black arrows" (as another poster suggested) would be punishable by death, as the elite don't want to be threatened by their inferiors. Capture for ransom might be common, in which case flash-bang magic would be used less often than disabling/immobilizing magic. In effect, think of a world where the most powerful have "rigged the game" in their favor.
Emperor Valerian
First Post
I think it depends greatly on the campaign,and what the DM wants to accomplish. In my homebrew campaign world, the following holds true.
"ARMIES
The armies of the Empire, as well as most of the other human realms, maintain a static core group of elite soldiers at all times. In the Empire's case, this is the Imperial Guard. These core troops are combined arms, in that they include melee fighters, archers, spellcasters, and specialized clerics.
However, an arrow, if properly placed, can drop the mightiest warrior or wizard if he is unlucky. As such, when major war looms, the Empire's nobility enact a levy, calling forth every 20th man from each village to serve. These troops are mustered at the baronial seats, before joining the forming Imperial armies to march to war. Frequently, these levys will also pull out minor spellcasters as well... mages and sorcerers that are out of work, or feeling adventurous.
Highly experienced personnel (such as 8th level or higher PCs) tend to be formed into smaller, more focused units for scouting, reconniasance, and quick, devastating strikes against the enemy leadership, material, or supplies.
On the battlefield, assuming both sides have roughly equal spellcasters, there remains a place for the common pikeman to push forward, as spellcasters, unless one side is weaker or grows tired, tend to cancel each other's offense. It is not until one side is near breaking that frequently the victor's offensive spells begin to break through as their opponents lose concentration trying to fend off an advance, or panic and flee. Then the magic comes on its own, and here is where the vast majority of armies take their losses.
The soldier and the mage are symbiotic... the mage allows for heavy firepower when he can get through, while the soldier keeps the mage protected from other mundane sources of injury or death. Should one or the other fail, the entire army faces collapse and destruction."
"ARMIES
The armies of the Empire, as well as most of the other human realms, maintain a static core group of elite soldiers at all times. In the Empire's case, this is the Imperial Guard. These core troops are combined arms, in that they include melee fighters, archers, spellcasters, and specialized clerics.
However, an arrow, if properly placed, can drop the mightiest warrior or wizard if he is unlucky. As such, when major war looms, the Empire's nobility enact a levy, calling forth every 20th man from each village to serve. These troops are mustered at the baronial seats, before joining the forming Imperial armies to march to war. Frequently, these levys will also pull out minor spellcasters as well... mages and sorcerers that are out of work, or feeling adventurous.
Highly experienced personnel (such as 8th level or higher PCs) tend to be formed into smaller, more focused units for scouting, reconniasance, and quick, devastating strikes against the enemy leadership, material, or supplies.
On the battlefield, assuming both sides have roughly equal spellcasters, there remains a place for the common pikeman to push forward, as spellcasters, unless one side is weaker or grows tired, tend to cancel each other's offense. It is not until one side is near breaking that frequently the victor's offensive spells begin to break through as their opponents lose concentration trying to fend off an advance, or panic and flee. Then the magic comes on its own, and here is where the vast majority of armies take their losses.
The soldier and the mage are symbiotic... the mage allows for heavy firepower when he can get through, while the soldier keeps the mage protected from other mundane sources of injury or death. Should one or the other fail, the entire army faces collapse and destruction."
Stormborn said:
OOOH Fun topic
I was just thinking about war IMC
My game world is built on the assumption that D&D magic is real-- its not an Earth likeworld built with D&D magic added on --- there is a bit of a difference
Most wars are fought by High level types for several reasons
1- MAD-- Can you say Epic Rain of Fire? IMC most epic level wizards have have magical means of defeating aging. Combine this with a relativly low casulaty rate means a slowly increasing number of Epic (30+ level mages) -- An example one major nation Vinyar can field over 200+ Epic level Wizards -- this is suffiecient to cast 200+ Rain of Colorless fire in a single day and blanket 200, 2 mile segments in a rain doing 1hp to everything per round for several hours --
This won't exhaust all of the magic available to them either
A week of this could destroy a continent
Keep in mind that these Wizards have almost unlimited scrying capacity and manueverability too
Every nation, however small, has this capacity -- OK the primitive tribesman may only have 2 epic level mages but its enough to ruin a city or create a massive blight or whatver. It allows tiny countrys to survive and hold off empires by simply making victory too costly -- Sure you can estroy my people but I will shatter you crops and lay waste to your lands. I will die but you shall starve
2--Lack of Battlefield Healing-- IMC Good Clericsand Paladins are forbidden to fight in secular wars with only rare exceptions Breaking this rule means a simple punishment -- No more spells. For the few occasions in which the Clerics believe the rule need to be broken checking is easy-- Bowl of Commune 1 per day "Should we fight in the war" viola the Gods will is known.
This lack of Clerics on the battlefield (though not in the Dungeon BTW) means battlefield healing is limited ot Bards, Sorcerers (who get Bard Healing IMC) and magic items -- the makes mass casulties all the more likely. Mass causlties are enough to force the Cleric to intervene (and might would be allowed do so) either directly (by forcing a peace) or indirectly (we withhold all healing magic until the war ends)
OTOH a few adventures are deniable and wont trigger clerical intervention
3-- Wizard equals College Degree-- Wizards are pretty common IMC, 5 years of training is roughly enough to reach 5th level. Even on a 3d6 roll more than 33% of the population has the INT to do this (12+ 1 point at 4th) . This means that any society willing to spend the time and money can get a lot of Wizards into play. An average army has 2 per 100. This means (with a wand FREX) a decent size army (say 5000) can fling 100 fireballs per round. even allowing for an average fighter being 3rd level with 26hP (typical for my game where HP are not less than con) one failed save means death (or nearly so) even success can mean 50% body burns -- while I ignore infection its still scary.
The average Wizard will have a decent AC, Aeriel Manueverabilty, Fireballs and Magic Missile a plenty and decent HP. He is basically a helicopter gunship OTOH Joe warrior has Scale Mail, Shield, Sword (or Axe) and maybe some Javelins
4-- Magic Items Accumlate -- Permanent Magic items are basically indestructable. This is implied by the swordbreakage rules and good sence. Simplh working a mending cantrip into a magic item will negate all wear from normal use. If half of all magic items are lost. eaten by dragons whatever a lot of items are still going to accumulate-- With several hundred years (and my game worls is relativly young with only 1000 years of history) of magic items being madethis means there will be a lot of magic items enough for to give ll of the elite guys a lot of them and still have enough for civic use . Lets say x small country has enough power componenets (I don't use xp) for 100 items permanent items per year. After 50 years thats 2500 items !
While there are a lot of items out there they are too expensive (using DMG prices) to give to any old mook -- Its becomes the logical choice to give them to elite small units (aka Adventurers) to maximize use and minimize loss
5-- Offence trumps defence-- If you read the generic spell desciptions in the PHB you will notice that offesive spell are better on a level per level basis than defence spells. OK there are things like Globe of Invulverability but they protect a small area. An ememy can simply change targets faster than you can defend the,. OK you shield the command and supply tent aginst my iceball -- No problem I will attack the Cav Unit with Horsekiller spell-- you can't protect all of them
This rules doesn't apply in small unit combat -- there are enough defences available to protect small units from Magic and in addition they have the skill and luck (aka HP) to survive attacks
5-- Other threats. Armies are no good against Dragons and Beholders and what all -- OTOH Adventurers are quite usefull and possess the skills and magic to defeat those threat
Armies still exist but they are mainly used as police or to take on mass threats (10000 orcs can overwhelm even high level types)
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