D&D 5E (2014) Warlock and Repelling Blast

[ryan92084]

It may or may not be implied, really depends on the reader. Perhaps we'll get a response on the intended meaning. For the time being any rule interpretation that requires one reading or the other to be a fact is built on shaky ground.

 

[Noctem]

It may or may not be implied, really depends on the reader. Perhaps we'll get a response on the intended meaning. For the time being any rule interpretation that requires one reading or the other to be a fact is built on shaky ground.

I don't think it's shaky ground. The requirements to cast a spell are that you provide ALL component requirements. If you can't provide them, you can't cast the spell. Ready explains that you MUST cast the spell "as normal" and that you then hold the energy. If you need to cast the spell, you must provide components in full. The only thing shaky about this discussion imo is the claim that component costs/payment are spread out throughout the resolution of the spell as a whole, including during the resolution of any effects the spell might have upon successfully casting it. That's the shaky part lol.

 

[ryan92084]

Please don't misrepresent the ready spell text. The text uses "but" not "then". One implies an exception the other completion and an order.

When you ready a spell you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs.

"Normal" spell casting generally includes the effects as can be seen with how it interacts with cast(s) a spell triigers. Ready actions may or may not provide an exception to this but I've shown that (language wise) it isn't necessarily the case.

"Normal" spellcasting also has no rules for when the component requiresments begin, end, or persist only that the spell is unable to be cast if they can't be provided.

Without having a factual position for either of these points nothing is proven by the usage ready action text with regards to components.

 

[Noctem]

but instead of then makes no difference in how the thing resolves dude.. I didn't misrepresent anything. @_@

The components are required to cast the spell in the first place. IF you can't provide ALL the components required, you can't cast the spell. That indicates that in order to cast you need all of them and they are used immediately. Disagreeing with this means that you could argue that if the spell is counterspelled you didn't use up material costs, action economy costs or use up a spell slot. This is nonsense. Once the spell is successfully cast there's absolutely no more need for the components (outside of specific exceptions which will be called out) because you've already cast the spell. The components are only used for that purpose (again outside of specifically called out examples).

Lack of rules text that says you need to continue V, S, M during the entire casting of a spell including the resolution of effects for successfully casting the spell doesn't mean anything. Just like the lack of the rules saying I can't auto-kill something when attacking it with my fist doesn't mean it's ambiguous or shaky ground and that I may in fact be able to do it. Let's stick to what the rules say and not try to invent stuff k?

And I quoted not the ready text but the spellcasting rules for components themselves. Ready doesn't change how this works because it doesn't specifically state that it works differently. Specific has to be well, specific. If it doesn't say it works differently then it DOES NOT.

 

[seebs]

I don't think it's misrepresenting it to say that it says that you cast the spell as normal. Yes, "but then hold its energy". Not "then continue speaking and guesturing and holding its energy".

I don't think it's a slam-dunk, but I think there is a weak implication there.

And yes, you're quite right that the spell casting rules are not particularly specific about when the components begin or end, in most cases. I do note, though, that we have a contrast with "longer casting times" (page 202):

When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see "Concentration" below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.

This strikes me as somewhat supporting my view. In the case where you're continuing to cast, you are spending your action each turn "casting the spell", and maintaining concentration. When you use a readied action, you do not use your reaction to "continue casting the spell" or anything of the sort; you just use your reaction to "release the energy". Note also the difference in concentration. With a readied spell, you have used up the spell slot at the end of your turn, and it's gone whether or not you then succeed in maintaining concentration. With a longer casting time, you haven't used up the spell slot until the spell completes.

This suggests to me that all "casting" is done. Since components are part of casting, I think they are necessarily done at the end of the action, and are not part of the reaction to release the held energy.

 

[ryan92084]

This statement misrepresents the text which i directly quoted

Ready explains that you MUST cast the spell "as normal" and that you then hold the energy

But and then are different and the difference matters in this context.
I drove home normally but stopped at the convenience store.
I drove home normally then stopped at the convenience store.
Different words different implications

I cast the line as normal but held the forward throw for right moment
I cast the line as normal then held the forward throw for the right moment
The latter doesn't even function logically.

If you have a quote saying "to cast you need all of them [components] and they are used immediately" please present it. Your interpretations, while reasonable, are not facts.

As pointed we have a general ruling where the spell isn't considered cast until after the effect so as long as components are supplied before then it satisfies RaW. Ready action may or may not change this with its "but".

[MENTION=61529]seebs[/MENTION] sorry my previous post wasn't meant for you. Your posts have been quite reasonable.
I noticed that section earlier when we were more focused on other topics. I wasn't particularly convinced by it as it's a different type of spell with a different type of action but can certainly see interpretting it as such.

 

[seebs]

My thought was, the different kind of spell (and action) could be used for a contrasting case. With one case, the spell is used up; with the other, it isn't. So that makes me think there's some fundamental difference, such as "the spell being completed already" in one case, but not the other.

But yeah, you have a point about the "then" vs. "but". I interpreted it as meaning "the actual resolution of the spell is not done at this time", and that being the significant change from the normal case. So, the casting event is the same, component usage is the same, everything's the same but you hold the energy until your reaction. But you're right that, strictly speaking, it doesn't tell us that the component usage is complete at that point; it could be that as long as you're holding the energy, you need the components available.

 

[ryan92084]

[MENTION=61529]seebs[/MENTION] Agreed.

As an aside IMO a lot of the weirdness comes from the different meaning(s) cast had when spells are involved.

While cast generally means throw/emit/direct/shoot spells often use it in the metal working sense to mean shaping/molding. The meanings are generally delineated by using cast and casting respectively sadly this isn't always the case so the meaning gets muddled. Especially confusing when talking about the timing of things.

 

[Zorku]

but instead of then makes no difference in how the thing resolves dude.. I didn't misrepresent anything. @_@

The components are required to cast the spell in the first place. IF you can't provide ALL the components required, you can't cast the spell. That indicates that in order to cast you need all of them and they are used immediately. Disagreeing with this means that you could argue that if the spell is counterspelled you didn't use up material costs, action economy costs or use up a spell slot. This is nonsense. Once the spell is successfully cast there's absolutely no more need for the components (outside of specific exceptions which will be called out) because you've already cast the spell. The components are only used for that purpose (again outside of specifically called out examples).

Lack of rules text that says you need to continue V, S, M during the entire casting of a spell including the resolution of effects for successfully casting the spell doesn't mean anything. Just like the lack of the rules saying I can't auto-kill something when attacking it with my fist doesn't mean it's ambiguous or shaky ground and that I may in fact be able to do it. Let's stick to what the rules say and not try to invent stuff k?

And I quoted not the ready text but the spellcasting rules for components themselves. Ready doesn't change how this works because it doesn't specifically state that it works differently. Specific has to be well, specific. If it doesn't say it works differently then it DOES NOT.

Nah. There are plenty of other ways that you could exhaust any material components that would have been consumed. The first thing that comes to mind is that counterspell could speed up the whole process so that the spell exhausts the materials, but the casting is already done and over long before the verbal or somatic components have been properly supplied. The rules don't go into this level of detail in exactly how a spell works, probably because it's magic and every world builder has their own ideas about how it should work. You've got the black box system where you know well enough what the output is given some input, and it does not have to matter how you get there, because it's irrelevant to the mechanics, and not very interesting fluff and lore material.

As for inventing stuff, I'll do that exactly as much as I need to to demonstrate faulty logic. Kind of goes with the territory of my post forevs ago about not just dropping "____ fallacy" and walking away as if that's what effective communication looks like. That said I'd warn against letting the line between your claims and refutations get too blurred.

 

[Arial Black]

The components are required to cast the spell in the first place. IF you can't provide ALL the components required, you can't cast the spell. That indicates that in order to cast you need all of them and they are used immediately. Disagreeing with this means that you could argue that if the spell is counterspelled you didn't use up material costs, action economy costs or use up a spell slot. This is nonsense. Once the spell is successfully cast there's absolutely no more need for the components (outside of specific exceptions which will be called out) because you've already cast the spell. The components are only used for that purpose (again outside of specifically called out examples).

Lack of rules text that says you need to continue V, S, M during the entire casting of a spell including the resolution of effects for successfully casting the spell doesn't mean anything. Just like the lack of the rules saying I can't auto-kill something when attacking it with my fist doesn't mean it's ambiguous or shaky ground and that I may in fact be able to do it. Let's stick to what the rules say and not try to invent stuff k?

And I quoted not the ready text but the spellcasting rules for components themselves. Ready doesn't change how this works because it doesn't specifically state that it works differently. Specific has to be well, specific. If it doesn't say it works differently then it DOES NOT.

Spot on!

We don't have to know what the magic words for each spell actually are, we just know that there are some for each spell with a verbal component, and that it must be provided. If it is not provided, the spell is not successfully cast.

Let's say that the verbal component for, say, lighting bolt, the magic words which must be provided, is the phrase "So long as men shall breathe, or eyes shall see!"

If you just say "So long as men..." and then stop, have you provided the required verbal component? No. Does a partial bolt of lightning, roughly a third of the usual length, fry some of the baddies, with the bolt growing longer as you continue the phrase? No.

How do we know? Because if you just said "So long as men..." and the spell effect, or part of it, appeared, and then you refused to complete the phrase, then the spell effect appeared even though you never provided the verbal component! You can't just go around shouting "So...!" and expecting your spells to work anyway! You've failed to provide the verbal component (the whole phrase) and so, RAW, the spell fails.

This is why we know that the components must be fully completed before the spell effect begins, because until you complete the components, you haven't provided the components.

When the Ready action lets you ready a spell, then the wording that lets you fully 'cast' the spell as an action (the components/spell slot) and later use a reaction to release the spell effect, relies on the already existing spellcasting rules that mean the casting process must complete before the spell effect begins.