D&D 5E Warlock and Repelling Blast

[Noctem]

I agree with everything Arial just posted. There's no assumptions being made from either of us. The RAW is very clear that you have to provide the requirements or you can't even begin casting the spell, never mind actually getting any effects going. Again I believe both Arial and I are in complete agreement that the steps are:

1. Declare which spell you cast
2. Provide S, V, M requirements in full
3. Expend a spell slot of appropriate level
4. Complete casting the spell
5. Gain the spell effects

With ready instead doing:

1. Declare you're taking the ready action and state an appropriate trigger
2. Declare which spell you're going to ready
3. Provide S, V, M requirements in full
4. Expend a spell slot of appropriate level
5. Complete casting the spell
6. Instead of gaining the effects of the spell immediately, you hold them until the trigger you stated is met.


Now to be clear, there's some room to say that the expending of the spell slot and providing the V, S, M requirements are switchable for the resolution order but regardless they have to happen before you complete the casting of the spell. There's no other way. I think that the order above is more compelling because you have to provide the component requirements before even being able to cast the spell.

Also, counterspelling a spell being cast will actually cause both of the casters to lose spell slots, one for the counterspell itself and one for the spell which was countered. Also material costs can be considered used up as well unless for example the spell states that upon successfully casting the spell the material component is used up.

I think the real assumptions being made here are that components requirements don't have to be provided before being able to cast the spell (contrary to the RAW quoted by Arial in his post in black and white) and that they instead can be performed throughout the casting and the resolution of the spell effects (again contrary to the RAW quoted). You can't cast the spell if you haven't provide all components required. If you need to chant "Do Do Do Bah Di Do" and do some hand waving and all you do is "Do Do Do Bah" and don't do the hand waving then you haven't provided the components REQUIRED to even begin casting the spell. This is the same thing Arial said earlier but it's important to drive this point home I think.

And it seems to me that some of you don't see that there's 2 steps going on when taking the Casting a Spell action. First it's that you cast the spell and the second is that you resolve the spell's effects. Some people here are overlapping the two steps together and allowing parts of each to seep into the other. That's not how this works. You don't get to gain any effects of casting a spell until you successfully cast the spell. You don't get to successfully cast the spell until you provide ALL of the requirements to do so. Components, spell slot and Action type are ALL required to successfully cast a spell and gain the effects.

 

[Ovinomancer]

My entire argument about verbal components is not based on any 'assumption' that all components must be completed before the effects occur, but is based on the RAW:-









Imagine that you start to cast a spell with VS components. What this means, RAW, is that you begin chanting the 'particular combination of sounds', with 'specific pitch and resonance', and also use at least one hand to 'perform these gestures'.

This doesn't take zero time in the world; you begin chanting and gesturing, go through the specific words and actions for that spell, and then complete them.

Imagine that you are half-way through this process when readied spells that cause you to be within a bubble of magical silence and that paralyse you cause you to fail to complete either the verbal or somatic component. Does the spell effect begin?

RAW, no, it absolutely cannot begin. You have failed to provide the particular combination of sounds, because that particular combination would be a different combination if there were some words missing. You have failed to provide the somatic component, because you haven't performed the required set of gestures.

If some of a spell's effect were to appear before the casting was complete, then some of the effect would occur even though you never provided the required verbal and somatic components! This is not legal by the RAW.

The casting process must be complete before the spell effect begins. This is not a mere assumption, but the consequence of the Rules As Written.

The funny thing is that this same thing happens in my interpretation. Because I don't insist that there's this unsupported step breakdown in casting a spell, if I allowed a readied action to trigger off of someone 'starting casting' (which I don't, and have explained why in other threads) then it would still work, because the casting is not complete and I don't have to have effects show up at any arbitrary point.

So, to clarify, your example above works the same under your interpretation as it does mine.

And that's my larger point -- both conjectures for how spellcasting works on the inside are consistent with the RAW, because the RAW doesn't say. You're perfectly free to add rulings to expand the ruleset, but you're not free to declare your rulings as global truth or the one true way. They aren't, they're just your rulings.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I agree with everything Arial just posted. There's no assumptions being made from either of us. The RAW is very clear that you have to provide the requirements or you can't even begin casting the spell, never mind actually getting any effects going. Again I believe both Arial and I are in complete agreement that the steps are:

1. Declare which spell you cast
2. Provide S, V, M requirements in full
3. Expend a spell slot of appropriate level
4. Complete casting the spell
5. Gain the spell effects

With ready instead doing:

1. Declare you're taking the ready action and state an appropriate trigger
2. Declare which spell you're going to ready
3. Provide S, V, M requirements in full
4. Expend a spell slot of appropriate level
5. Complete casting the spell
6. Instead of gaining the effects of the spell immediately, you hold them until the trigger you stated is met.


Now to be clear, there's some room to say that the expending of the spell slot and providing the V, S, M requirements are switchable for the resolution order but regardless they have to happen before you complete the casting of the spell. There's no other way. I think that the order above is more compelling because you have to provide the component requirements before even being able to cast the spell.

Also, counterspelling a spell being cast will actually cause both of the casters to lose spell slots, one for the counterspell itself and one for the spell which was countered. Also material costs can be considered used up as well unless for example the spell states that upon successfully casting the spell the material component is used up.

I think the real assumptions being made here are that components requirements don't have to be provided before being able to cast the spell (contrary to the RAW quoted by Arial in his post in black and white) and that they instead can be performed throughout the casting and the resolution of the spell effects (again contrary to the RAW quoted). You can't cast the spell if you haven't provide all components required. If you need to chant "Do Do Do Bah Di Do" and do some hand waving and all you do is "Do Do Do Bah" and don't do the hand waving then you haven't provided the components REQUIRED to even begin casting the spell. This is the same thing Arial said earlier but it's important to drive this point home I think.

And it seems to me that some of you don't see that there's 2 steps going on when taking the Casting a Spell action. First it's that you cast the spell and the second is that you resolve the spell's effects. Some people here are overlapping the two steps together and allowing parts of each to seep into the other. That's not how this works. You don't get to gain any effects of casting a spell until you successfully cast the spell. You don't get to successfully cast the spell until you provide ALL of the requirements to do so. Components, spell slot and Action type are ALL required to successfully cast a spell and gain the effects.

You're outside RAW. Your 1-5 and 1-6 above do not appear anywhere in the rules. That you think it must work this way is fine, but it's just you thinking, not the rules or the required outcome of the rules.

 

[Noctem]

Really? So I don't have to provide the components required by the spell, as specifically stated in the RAW, in order to cast the spell? In fact, I don't even need to cast the spell at all to get the effects of successfully casting the spell? No expending actions to cast, no spell slots used up, nothing? Marvelous. You play the game that way if you want, I'll play the way the game is designed thanks. And since you're going to be claiming this kind of nonsense, I'm not going to bother replying again because I don't want to get into another head butting contest with you. It's a total waste of time.

 

[Arial Black]

Now to be clear, there's some room to say that the expending of the spell slot and providing the V, S, M requirements are switchable for the resolution order but regardless they have to happen before you complete the casting of the spell. There's no other way. I think that the order above is more compelling because you have to provide the component requirements before even being able to cast the spell.

Thinking about the relationship between 'components' and 'spell slot' in the spellcasting process, I don't think that the caster chooses to do one and then the other (in either order); I think that the caster knows that a successfully performed casting (the VSM components) causes a slot to be used up. The act of casting automatically consumes the spell slot that you had in mind as you cast the spell, in order to power the spell. Of course, if you don't have the spell slot the the spell will not happen.

When you use your phone, it consumes the electricity stored in the battery, or from the power grid if still plugged in. If you use an app on your phone, or make a call, or whatever, there is no separate moment when you choose to use some electricity per se; you just choose to do the thing you want, and the appropriate amount of electricity gets consumed simply by doing the thing you want to do.

Taking this into account:-

1. Declare which spell you cast
2. Provide V, S, M requirements in full
3. Complete casting the spell, which causes the appropriate spell slot to be expended
4. Gain the spell effects

Any Thoughts?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Really? So I don't have to provide the components required by the spell, as specifically stated in the RAW, in order to cast the spell? In fact, I don't even need to cast the spell at all to get the effects of successfully casting the spell? No expending actions to cast, no spell slots used up, nothing? Marvelous. You play the game that way if you want, I'll play the way the game is designed thanks. And since you're going to be claiming this kind of nonsense, I'm not going to bother replying again because I don't want to get into another head butting contest with you. It's a total waste of time.

I'll allow that perhaps I wasn't as abundantly clear as I needed to be, as that's far more charitable than thinking that you're intentionally misunderstanding me in a way that's obviously untrue given the extended content of my posts on the matter. Mea culpa. Let me try again:

The order in which you present spellcasting above is not RAW. Those things are not required to occur in the order that you present them, as no such order is provided. You must, of course, still follow the actual RAW of spellcasting, which is to provide the appropriate components, provide the appropriate spell slot, and use the appropriate action to do so.

 

[Arial Black]

The order in which you present spellcasting above is not RAW. Those things are not required to occur in the order that you present them, as no such order is provided. You must, of course, still follow the actual RAW of spellcasting, which is to provide the appropriate components, provide the appropriate spell slot, and use the appropriate action to do so.

...and if you haven't provided these, then the spell fails. Therefore, the spell cannot begin until you have provided these things, therefore these things must be provided before the spell begins, because the spell effects cannot begin until these things have been provided.

If the spell effects occurred first, then they will have appeared at a time where these things have not been, and may never be, provided, and that would be contrary to RAW.

 

[seebs]

I think you've got two errors here.

One is conflating "provided" with "fully acted-out or consumed". If you are providing the talking part of a spell component, the spell can start because the component is provided, and then possibly later be interrupted if you stop.

The other is that you're forgetting that 5e allows for retroactive causality. As long as the components are present (even if not completed yet, in the case of V/S components) when the spell starts, we're good. If something prevents you from finishing parts of them, that may affect outcomes, and could retroactively cause the spell not to work. Same as, say, a counterspell, which happens after you've completed spell casting. Same with shield; you activate the spell after you're hit, then you retroactively change things so you might not be hit.

 

[Noctem]

I think you've got two errors here.

One is conflating "provided" with "fully acted-out or consumed". If you are providing the talking part of a spell component, the spell can start because the component is provided, and then possibly later be interrupted if you stop.

The other is that you're forgetting that 5e allows for retroactive causality. As long as the components are present (even if not completed yet, in the case of V/S components) when the spell starts, we're good. If something prevents you from finishing parts of them, that may affect outcomes, and could retroactively cause the spell not to work. Same as, say, a counterspell, which happens after you've completed spell casting. Same with shield; you activate the spell after you're hit, then you retroactively change things so you might not be hit.

I say you need to provide me an apple in my hand before I can eat the apple. You then pick up an apple but don't give it to me.

You have failed to provide me an apple in my hand. Because of this, I can't eat the apple.

The rules say you need to provide the components before being able to cast the spell. You then start then making sounds for the verbal component but never finish, do half the somatic symbols and don't provide the material cost involved.

You have failed to provide the components to begin casting the spell. You can't then cast the spell, gain any of the spell effects or do anything at all in regards to this spell because you have failed to provide the components required to cast the spell.

So that should clear up your first point. Half-providing what is required is not providing what is required. You don't get to claim that you're still providing the components, you're not. If I'm required by law to provide you with a frame, bedding and blanket and I only provide you with a blanket, I have not provided what I was supposed to. If you want to argue semantics like this I'll pass and let someone else beat their head against that particular wall.

The raw says you have to provide ALL components to BEGIN casting the spell. Your claim of retroactive causality is nonsense. There's no retroactive event, if you fail to provide the components or something interrupts your spell casting like counterspell, you still had to provide all of the components before casting the spell, including the action type and spell slot needed.

Also:

Counterspell
3rd-level abjuration


Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell

Range: 60 feet

Components: S

Duration: Instantaneous


You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect.


I mean it literally says 4 times in the spell description that you're using Counterspell against a creature CASTING A SPELL. So how you got "which happens after you've completed spell casting" is odd. Shield at least is correct, the trigger is that you're hit and then you activate shield to potentially negate the hit. Guessing you mixed up the two.

 

[Arial Black]

I think you've got two errors here.

One is conflating "provided" with "fully acted-out or consumed". If you are providing the talking part of a spell component, the spell can start because the component is provided, and then possibly later be interrupted if you stop.

The other is that you're forgetting that 5e allows for retroactive causality. As long as the components are present (even if not completed yet, in the case of V/S components) when the spell starts, we're good. If something prevents you from finishing parts of them, that may affect outcomes, and could retroactively cause the spell not to work. Same as, say, a counterspell, which happens after you've completed spell casting. Same with shield; you activate the spell after you're hit, then you retroactively change things so you might not be hit.

Er...!

So, you begin chanting the verbal component. While still chanting, the effects of the spell happen, killing me...

Then, before you can complete the verbal component, my friend kills you...

...then, because you failed to provide the V component, the spell that already killed me(!) fails, and so I come back to life...???

I'm basing this on what you just posted, specifically: "If something prevents you from finishing parts of them, that may affect outcomes, and could retroactively cause the spell not to work."