Warlock and Sorcerer

[bogmad]

I think it would take more effort to balance spells to be used across multiple completely different classes. A sorcerer, for example, has a spell point system which is by far completely different than the wizard's dailies.



I don't think it's too much if you have a set spell progression for each bloodline. Basically the sorcerer wouldn't really get to choose or change their spell list.

Isn't this what they're doing, but with more flexibility? There is a progression of "sorcerous powers" the sorcerer gets every few levels, according to bloodline that he doesn't choose or change. He just also gets access to the sorcerer spell list for variety, which happens to overlap with the wizard's list.
Everybody gets what he wants! Everybody can be happy! (as if that'll happen)

 

[variant]

Isn't this what they're doing, but with more flexibility? There is a progression of "sorcerous powers" the sorcerer gets every few levels, according to bloodline that he doesn't choose or change. He just also gets access to the sorcerer spell list for variety, which happens to overlap with the wizard's list.
Everybody gets what he wants! Everybody can be happy! (as if that'll happen)

The sorcerer eclipses the wizard in almost every way right now.

 

[MoonSong]

The sorcerer eclipses the wizard in almost every way right now.

I don't think so, or at least not totally, simple as that the draconic sorcerer is right now a Gish "class", there are also fears that he also outshines the fighter, while I agree spell points can easily lend themselves to low level spells spam, it really helps with the flavor. And remember a sorcerer can only know 21 spells on all of his career, while the wizard has no limit on that number, has a faster attack, DC and spell progression and I bet not all bloodlines will focus on heavy armor and martial weapons, my ideal sorcerer gets finesse weapons and no armor. We need to playtest to see if the sorcerer really manages to outclass the wizard.

 

[variant]

I don't think so, or at least not totally, simple as that the draconic sorcerer is right now a Gish "class", there are also fears that he also outshines the fighter, while I agree spell points can easily lend themselves to low level spells spam, it really helps with the flavor. And remember a sorcerer can only know 21 spells on all of his career, while the wizard has no limit on that number, has a faster attack, DC and spell progression and I bet not all bloodlines will focus on heavy armor and martial weapons, my ideal sorcerer gets finesse weapons and no armor. We need to playtest to see if the sorcerer really manages to outclass the wizard.

How many spells you know has some benefit, but not a lot when you are forced to memorize a set of spells each day and hope you chose the right ones. A sorcerer can not only spam low level spells, but they will more likely have the right spell on hand at the right time. A sorcerer will also be able to cast more high level spells by simply sacrificing the spell points he had for his lower level spells. A wizard is basically stuck with a bunch of useless low level spells he won't ever really use much at high level.

 

[bogmad]

The sorcerer eclipses the wizard in almost every way right now.

Except for # of spells learned, spells available, spell DC, and ability to cast rituals. ...

But yeah I can get where you're coming from. It definitely feels more exciting. I'd probably play this over the wizard, but that's mainly due to my preferences as to what kind of character I like to play.

The wizard's more of that weird bookish guy that nobody pays attention to in relation to the flashy guy growing dragon scales over there.

Especially, if your wizard chooses a sub-optimal suite of spells he could easily start to look pretty not-so-great

 

[Li Shenron]

While it would seem to look better, we don't really need separate spell lists for all classes, if those classes are mostly designed to do exactly the same thing, which is blast away monsters on the battlefield.

Any attempt at differentiating them IMHO will result either in (a) having spells which are more or less equivalent but just different flavor, or (b) taking away from the wizard a series of abilities which have always been her.

 

[MoonSong]

Except for # of spells learned, spells available, spell DC, and ability to cast rituals. ...

But yeah I can get where you're coming from. It definitely feels more exciting. I'd probably play this over the wizard, but that's mainly due to my preferences as to what kind of character I like to play.

The wizard's more of that weird bookish guy that nobody pays attention to in relation to the flashy guy growing dragon scales over there.

Especially, if your wizard chooses a sub-optimal suite of spells he could easily start to look pretty not-so-great

If the wizard picked the wrong spells for the day, all he has to do is wait for the next long rest to try again, and if he truly knows bad spells all he has to do is wait to level up in order to learn three more spells, or just until the next time a scroll or a library shows up to copy more spells to his spell book. If a sorcerer picks bad spells he has to deal with them everyday for his whole career.

 

[Yora]

How many spells you know has some benefit, but not a lot when you are forced to memorize a set of spells each day and hope you chose the right ones. A sorcerer can not only spam low level spells, but they will more likely have the right spell on hand at the right time. A sorcerer will also be able to cast more high level spells by simply sacrificing the spell points he had for his lower level spells. A wizard is basically stuck with a bunch of useless low level spells he won't ever really use much at high level.

The same concernes have been voiced about psions in 3rd Edition, and common consensus is, that this is simply not happening in practice. Psions are still bunched in with wizard, cleric, druid, and artificiers, but they did not surpass wizards and clerics, against we have to compare them when it comes to judging their spellcasting ability.

And the guy who invented the whole 3.5e power point system is also in the 5th Edition design team, so there's a very high chance that pitfals can be avoided.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I really want to see how they're going to implement those wizard traditions now, because wizards don't seem that interesting now.

 

[tuxgeo]

The type of warlock that serves demons and such for power is quite controversial. While some warlocks may choose to maintain such a relationship with their patron, I don't think all warlocks should have to.

The word warlock means "oath breaker." I want to be able to forge a pact with a demon, take the fiendish powers it grants, tell it "hey thanks!", flip it the bird and then use those dark powers for good. If that character concept is "wrong," I don't want to be right.

I think the "oath breaker" definition simply refers to "The Social Contract," in the sense that a warlock is someone who breaks the social contract (defaults on societal expectations) by forging a pact with a(n anti-social) "power beyond." With this interpretation, warlocks can stay in good standing with their patrons and can keep getting power without further contact; but their patrons still do have hooks into the warlocks' hides (or souls) that give the patrons power over the warlocks' actions.

I'm not saying that warlock pacts shouldn't come with drawbacks. That's the price that comes with taking that shortcut to power. I just don't want to be forced to have to "pray" to my patron to get my expendable powers back. Once the pact has been sealed, I should never have to deal with my patron again.

Hm. You should have to deal with your patron again if you want further clarification about the quests your patron gives you, or if you want it to give you additional quests. And if you go against its wishes, you'll probably have to deal with it again because it will come after you, accusing you of stealing its power.