Warlock and Sorcerer

[UngeheuerLich]

While the sorcere seems quite powerful right now, he is actually to be compared to the cleric. And they are standing on equal footing in hp and armor department, and their attack and spell DC progressions, while the fighter and the wizard and even the warlock outclass both of them on their own battlefield.

And people, please leave the wizard spellcasting mechanics in peace. There are people who like it that way and honestly believe it is the more flexible mechanic - like me.

Would I mind some at-will spells? No. Some tradition? No. Schools of magic? No. But the core of the wizard is the vancian type who can learn every spell but must prepare wisely.
The ADnD bard was also vancian. I´d take him everytime over the 3rd edition bard who was limited to so few spells per level it was not funny. Never intended to play the sorcerer.
This type (although maybe a bit of balance needs to be done) seems cool right out of the gate, not stepping on the wizards toe. The warlock also seems like an interesting incarnation of the 3e one. Ritual casting replacing use magic device. Nice.

I also like, that all three of them use the same spell list. If 4e had used unified spell and maneuver lists, I guess it wouls have been received a lot better. Mostly identical spells and maneuvers in 2-4 different lists prevented us from remembering iconics (come and get it or twin strike non-withstanding) and wasted a lot of space.

 

[TwoSix]

How many spells you know has some benefit, but not a lot when you are forced to memorize a set of spells each day and hope you chose the right ones. A sorcerer can not only spam low level spells, but they will more likely have the right spell on hand at the right time. A sorcerer will also be able to cast more high level spells by simply sacrificing the spell points he had for his lower level spells. A wizard is basically stuck with a bunch of useless low level spells he won't ever really use much at high level.

An interesting rule change for the sorcerer would be that they only cast their higher level spells once they've spent a certain amount of willpower. I like the idea of lower willpower reflecting them tapping more and more into their innate heritage, and I'm in love with the idea of a class transforming itself by spending resources.

Additionally, it would prevent alpha strikes, instead the sorcerer is more of the clean-up guy. He spends a couple fights slowly tapping into his power, and at the last desperate fight, he's finally tapped in enough to use his most powerful abilities.

 

[Yora]

That might be fun for a few characters in very specific types of campaigns, but I don't think that's anything that people who just want a non-vancian wizard want to have to deal with.

 

[MarkB]

The way I see it, the warlock discovers the forbidden rites that let him contact one of the strange otherworldly entitities that grant pacts. The patron then offers the warlock great power, but at a price. The warlock agrees. The deal is struck. The warlock then has that power implanted in his soul or whatever, and then, it's his, permanently. It can't be revoked or taken away at that point, nor should he ever have to beg to have it refreshed. Once the pact is sealed, that should be it. The patron shouldn't be able to take it away, and the warlock likewise can't back out of the drawbacks that come with it (and which grow as his power does).

The idea that he has to keep going back to his patron to refuel his powers makes warlocks too much like divine casters, rather than cunning oathbreakers that seek out forbidden magic as a way of cheating to get power that mortals aren't meant to have.

Warlock is a class you can gain at 1st level. How many characters at that level are going to be able to muster up any kind of impressive 'price' that will satisfy some otherworldly being?

To me, it makes more sense that the warlock is entering into a long-term pact, gaining power and favour in return for satisfying the patron being's needs at some future point, or on an ongoing basis. It's an active, two-way agreement that will evolve as the character does.

[Edit] There's another reason I think warlocks shouldn't have to keep going back to their patron for power. What if that patron being dies? What if Verenestra gets ganked by adventurers? The warlock shouldn't be out of luck if that happens.

One way to handle this is to have contracts be passed along, or even go up for grabs, if one party ceases to be in a position to fulfil them. In the Dresden Files novels, the protagonist has a long-term deal with a powerful fey of the Winter Court. When that fey is temporarily incapacitated, it falls upon her mistress to take up its obligations. Since that mistress is Queen Mab, this makes Dresden's life uncomfortably interesting for awhile - but the deal remains intact.

In the case of demonic contracts, I could easily see contracts being traded, bartered and even stolen amongst the abyssal powers. A character could make a deal with one particular demon and work with him for years, attaining great power, then the next time he beseeches his patron he finds quite a different entity on the other end of the call.

 

[Grimmjow]

One thing I don't like is warlocks having to "pray" to their patron for more "favors." Warlocks are arcane casters, not divine casters. Once they have made their pact and paid its price, their power should be entirely their own, to use as they see fit. The idea of having to get down and beg for more power after every encounter is a big turn off for me. I'd play a cleric if I wanted to beg some higher power for spells all the time.

I agree they should find a different way to gain the favors back. I do however love the way they make the pact something that continues to take more from the player as they gain more power.

 

[MoonSong]

An interesting rule change for the sorcerer would be that they only cast their higher level spells once they've spent a certain amount of willpower. I like the idea of lower willpower reflecting them tapping more and more into their innate heritage, and I'm in love with the idea of a class transforming itself by spending resources.

Additionally, it would prevent alpha strikes, instead the sorcerer is more of the clean-up guy. He spends a couple fights slowly tapping into his power, and at the last desperate fight, he's finally tapped in enough to use his most powerful abilities.

Only if you see sorcerers as blasters, not every sorcerer is going to expend their precious known spells in combat spells, not when they have other means to fight. Also I don't see any problem with a sorcerer spamming his only second level spell over and over if the situation calls for it, and by the time he has more than one second level spell known the wizard already has third level spells. And next leve he is more likely to pick a third level spell instead of a third second level one just to keep pace, basically he is doomed to know only two spells of each level for his whole career, restricting him to only be able to cast his highest level spells by the fifth encounnter of the day that may not even happen is just gimping them for no reason

 

[Yora]

Wilders get even less powers with just a new one every two levels, and they still work reasonably well and can be quite fun.
It just requires to have meaningful other class features that synergize with the spells, and to have spells with some versatility. Hold undead and detect chaos would not be examples of this.

Also, given that the dragon disciple gets so potent melee combat abilities, I expect that other sorcerers will have considerably more spells known, spell points, and probably higher magical attack bonus.

 

[The Shadow]

Also, given that the dragon disciple gets so potent melee combat abilities, I expect that other sorcerers will have considerably more spells known, spell points, and probably higher magical attack bonus.

I am inclined to doubt this. Simply because the weapon and armor proficiencies say "See your bloodline" while the rest comes off a chart. And if we start changing everything about the class with bloodline, why not just admit they're different classes?

With that said, though, I am really wondering just what the other bloodlines *do* get in exchange for less proficiency? I think the cleric Domains point the way.

The Sun cleric doesn't get more spells known (other than an extra minor spell), more spells per day, or higher magical attack bonus than the War cleric. But he does get more powerful domain spells and a powerful Channel Divinity ability.

Other bloodlines may have Sorcerous Powers that focus more on enhancing spellcasting than combat. *Possibly* they may grant an extra spell or two. (An extra minor spell could be very welcome to a sorcerer - they only ever get two otherwise!) Possibly they may grant access to a wider pool of spells.

Any other ideas?

 

[Yora]

As it is now, it looks a lot more like psychic warrior than psion (which I now checked, also gain 1 power per level). So one idea would be something that greatly enhances physical abilities like jumping, speed, and dodging.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Hm. You should have to deal with your patron again if you want further clarification about the quests your patron gives you, or if you want it to give you additional quests. And if you go against its wishes, you'll probably have to deal with it again because it will come after you, accusing you of stealing its power.

Sure, if that's the kind of story you want to tell. That said, I'd imagine that not all patrons are even interested in telling their warlocks what to do. Verenestra just wants your beauty. I doubt she cares what you do with the power you got out of the deal. On the other hand, I could see arch demons offering mortals the temptation of power as a means of recruiting followers in the mortal world, and being quite unhappy if the warlock goes rogue. Still, I can see other demons who are confident that the power they grants will corrupt the warlock eventually, and let them go their own way as long as they don't interfere with the demon's own plans.

In any case, those kinds of roleplying consequences are not what I have a problem with. The only part I strongly dislike is how you have to "pray" to your patron to refresh your powers. It's like the warlock doesn't have any real power of his own. So Verenestra gets to permanently steal some of the warlock's beauty, but the power the warlock gets out of the deal isn't even permanent? He has to go back and beg every time it runs out? That's crap.

Warlock is a class you can gain at 1st level. How many characters at that level are going to be able to muster up any kind of impressive 'price' that will satisfy some otherworldly being?

The warlock doesn't choose the price. That's a built-in part of the pact's nature. The one example we have so far is a loss of physical beauty. Other pacts will of course have other costs. There really isn't any negotiation going on. The pact is what it is, and I doubt the patron can even change it.

To me, it makes more sense that the warlock is entering into a long-term pact, gaining power and favour in return for satisfying the patron being's needs at some future point, or on an ongoing basis. It's an active, two-way agreement that will evolve as the character does.

The patron collects its price from the warlock regardless, and as the warlock's power increases, the patron automatically gets even more from it. Verenestra gets to take more and more of your beauty as you grow in power, whether you have a continuing personal relationship with her or not. There's no getting out of that.

In the case of demonic contracts, I could easily see contracts being traded, bartered and even stolen amongst the abyssal powers. A character could make a deal with one particular demon and work with him for years, attaining great power, then the next time he beseeches his patron he finds quite a different entity on the other end of the call.

That's an interesting thought, but shouldn't the warlock have some say in it? I imagine that each archdemon's pact has very different benefits and drawbacks, according to its inner nature. It would really suck for the warlock if his "contract" could just be handed off to someone else and the nature of his powers totally changes.