Warlock as Full Caster

[Krachek]

I wasn't sure if I should laugh, or give XP. But this is the truth.

The issue that the OP has isn't with the class, it's with short rests. And it's the same issue any class that is short-rest based will have.

If your campaign doesn't use short rests (for any reason) all short rest classes will seem underpowered.

The solution isn't to buff those classes- it's to change the timing (even if it's to make it more hardcore, as in turn all long rests into short rests, and a long rest is 1/week or something!).

Or, just play a sorcerer or wizard and don't worry about it. Import the fluff from the warlock.

My post deserve more a laugh than xp.
But I also think that the solution is in the encounter size, number and pace.
Dm need to leave the autopilot, and setup various work day.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

The issue is playing 5e in a weird way, not as intended. Most overland travel can be hand waived. If that is the adventure the solution should be to change how rests are acquired. Otherwise you're just removing short rests and making everything easy for the long rest classes.

Warlocks are definitely full casters. The most powerful ones. An average of 6 full strength spells per long rest is hugely powerful.

I tend to agree here. Just because the players don't announce "we're taking a short rest" doesn't mean there isn't an hour of downtime somewhere in most adventuring days. Perhaps not in certain super-deadly dungeons - but even then is the DM refusing to allow them to barricade themselves into a room ever? Seems odd that the PCs are in constant peril for 16 hours straight and can't squeeze in at least a break for lunch.

 

[Baumi]

My 6th level Tome / Great Old One Warlock has:

Eldritch Blast boosted by Hex (d10+d6+4) (uses one slot, lasts all day)
Unlimited Silent Image, MInor Image, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Guidance, Mold Earth, Telepathy speaking
Ritual Casting with several spells (8 already)
1 Free spell slot per short rest (after hex) of 3rd level
1 Free spell slot per long rest (from rod)
Wand of Web with 7 charges per day

I don't feel constrained.

I don't think that this is good example because it includes quite powerful Items and Hex might last all day, but is a Concentration Spell and therefore broken as soon as you cast your Image Spells, Guidance and many other spells. And Tome Warlock is also ment to be the Spellcasting/Utility Warlock .. if you take Chain or Blade you are also much more limited in your Resources.

But my OP was not ment to start a big SR vs LR discussion or to fix the Warlock itself (which I love and in the right campaign is absolutely fine). But merely to see if the Warlock Slots are equal to the standard Caster ones and therefore interchangable. But it seems the consensus is that they are a bit weaker (in exchange for powerful Invocations) and so swapping would be a bit unbalanced.

 

[5ekyu]

"I love the Warlock. But the 2 Spells per Short Rest for the most of his Career is frustrating, especially if you have a Campaign where Short Rests are not much more common than long Rest (Overland Travel)."

There are long rest based classes (nova) and short rest based classes (sustain) and of course some twixt and tween.

If your campaign breaks down the expected balance of short v long to the extent that the watlock (built around being an archer type playstyle - not traditional mage) is having trouble, then **dont** just beef the class but change the rest mechanics because its very likely the other shorties are having trouble too.

For instance...
First short rest takes 1m.
Second short rest tskes 15m
Third and later short rest takes an hour each
Characters limited to number of short rests equal to Con bonus.

Short rest timers and uses reset at end of long rest.

Now, getting one short rest between your two-three encounters is easy. Getting two a little easier and by three its back to "normal" but you do tie max to an ability.

Edit - The same can be accomplushed by adding potions of rejuvenation that give short rest with a con mod limit on uses between long rests - but from an item method instead of rules.

 

[flametitan]

Generally, I feel like a quicker solution to solving short rest based classes not getting enough rests (and for whatever reason you desire not to change the rest constraints) is to instead triple the resources and restrict it to long rest recovery. So a Warlock doesn't have two spell slots per short rest, but rather 6 spell slots per long rest.

It gives them a lot more nova potential, though, which is something to keep an eye out on.

 

[jgsugden]

I don't think that this is good example because it includes quite powerful Items...

2 uncommon items, one purchased, one found... and most Warlocks end up with Pact keeper Rod pretty early on in my experience.

... and Hex might last all day, but is a Concentration Spell and therefore broken as soon as you cast your Image Spells, Guidance and many other spells.

Very true. I have to decide when to cast the Hex, and it does cut off some of those options while I have it in place... but even when it is up I have useful options.

And Tome Warlock is also ment to be the Spellcasting/Utility Warlock .. if you take Chain or Blade you are also much more limited in your Resources.

Yes. And if a fighter only has melee weapons they are horrible at ranged fighting. I'm pointing out that you can have a lot of options, not that every build will have a lot of options.

But my OP was not ment to start a big SR vs LR discussion or to fix the Warlock itself (which I love and in the right campaign is absolutely fine). But merely to see if the Warlock Slots are equal to the standard Caster ones and therefore interchangable. But it seems the consensus is that they are a bit weaker (in exchange for powerful Invocations) and so swapping would be a bit unbalanced.

I think there are a few balanced approaches suggested above.

 

[Pauln6]

1) Modify Agonizing Blast to affect all cantrips.
2) Drop Eldritch Blast and every invocation that affects only Eldritch Blast.
3) Change invocations that are "Use X spell once per Long Rest" to add the spell to your spells known list.

I gave up Eldritch Blast because we had two warlocks plus a monk with magic initiate and it was so dull with all three of us spamming Eldritch Blast endlessly. I'm hesitant to say that that the invocations that apply to Eldritch Blast should apply to all Warlock cantrips since I can't visualise every possible synergy, especially melee vs ranged, but I certainly think that the Warlock should be able to nominate which cantrip/ cantrips they apply to. You could even make it so that a certain Warlock level you get to upgrade another cantrip affected.

Agonising Blast works best with Eldritch Blasts since it applies to each individual blast, so balance issues there seem more limited. Not 100% on how other enhancing invocations might be affected.

Overall though, the Warlock class is fine. I'd prefer to have more spells known than spell slots but then I took magic initiate for extra spells and several at will spell invocations. It's extremely customisable but that means there are trade offs to be made. It can't be all things to all people all the time.

 

[Dausuul]

Our group is considering a house rule where short rests are only 1 minute, but you can only take two per day.