Warlock Opinions?

[Thanee]

I wouldn't have a problem pointing at the Scribe Scroll feat description in the PHB and saying that Imbue Item does not apply to Scrolls.

I don't know... you mean this part here, or not?

"You can create a scroll of any spell that you know."

Doesn't that get directly overruled by Imbue Item?

"A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item ..."

Bye
Thanee

 

[Endur]

"A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item ..."

Yes, that's the part. It really comes down to whether you interpret "items" as applying to all magical items including scrolls or all magical items excluding scrolls. I have the old-time D&D philosophy that scrolls are different from all other magic items, so that was why I read it differently.

But I have no problems with the other interpretation, allowing warlocks to create scrolls.

From a game flavor perspective, allowing warlocks to create scrolls basically means that we allow Warlocks to use all sorts of spells, but they have to pay exp and gold to cast their spells whereas wizards and clerics just have to memorize their spells.

 

[Thanee]

I have the old-time D&D philosophy that scrolls are different from all other magic items, so that was why I read it differently.

Ah, I see.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dimwhit]

I'm playing a Warlock (9th level now), and I love it. Not overly powerful, but he takes a good part in the campaign. It's a fun, low book-keeping class.

 

[Particle_Man]

Not this again....



You see it does NOT remove the CL requirement. It removes a requirement higher than the spells involved. For example, the Invulnerability armor ability lists a standard CL18 because Wish and Miracle are the usual spells involved, but because it can also be created using Stoneskin it can be crafted at a lower CL if you use Stoneskin. The same rule goes for staffs and wonderous items - you always need a CL high enough to cast the spells being using in the crafting. There is no way for a Warlock to craft items using 9th level spells before 17th level.

Luckily, The Ur-Priest/Ex-Cleric (from complete divine - and if we can use complete arcane for the warlock we can use complete divine) can cast 9th level cleric spells with a caster level of 9 (or 10). Since the Warlock has a caster level of 12, the warlock can therefore make items requiring cleric spells of up to 9th level, assuming that the warlock makes the UMD check (not a guarantee, since divine spells have a higher DC).

There is nothing that says the Warlock is tied to the Cleric's caster level, rather than the Ur-Priest's, after all. Similarly, if there is any prestige class anywhere that grants access to 9th level wizard/sorceror spells at the 9th level of that prestige class the way an Ur-Priest gets access to 9th level spells at 9th level of that prestige class (and thus we can get access by some means to 9th level spells while having a caster level of 12th or less) than the Warlock can duplicate spells from the spell list of that prestige class, assuming that the warlock makes the UMD check.

[Edit] What do you know? The Sublime Chord almost fits the bill perfectly. Take a 5th level Wizard/1stlevel Bard/4th level Rogue/9th level sublime chord. IF the S.C. adds here prestige class levels to her Wizard levels for determining her caster level, then her caster level would be 14th (and 2 levels previously, would have been 12th). Thus she could cast 8th or lower arcane spells from the wizard/sorceror and bard lists at 12th caster level. Thus the Warlock could duplicate those spells with a 12th caster level. The Warlock would have to wait 2 levels to duplicate spells from the Sublime Chord spell list that are 9th level.

Or does he? If the Sublime Chord adds her caster levels to her Bard caster levels for some non-optimized reason, then her caster level for the 9th level spells will be less than 12, and thus all spells on her list would be duplicatable at 12th caster level by the Warlock. Sublime Chord is in Complete Arcane (where the Warlock is featured).

So there you have it. By duplicating spells from the Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord spell lists, the Warlock can in fact make items at 12th level that have those 9th level divine or arcane spells as prerequisites (for staffs, wondrous items, armor, shields and weapons but not for wands, potions or scrolls).

 

[Kurotowa]

Once we start talking about Imbue Item and PrC spell lists we're well past the RAW and into the realm of interpritation and house rules. The Imbue Item description is really not that detailed, sadly.

Now sure, you could try and argue that a Warlock can pretend to be a Wizard 5/Bard 1/Rogue 4/Sublime Chord 9 when he crafts an item. If I had someone try to argue that to me I'd get out my huge 2ed MM binder and whack them with it until they promised never to try something that silly again. Other DMs are of course welcome to rule however they please. But let's agree that doing so would be a house rule, not RAW, and not list it as a major strength of the class.

 

[Particle_Man]

Why should I concede the RAW ground? It is not a house rule, it is laid out in the Complete books and the erratted DMG, your "whacking" tendencies notwithstanding.

I am willing to say we interpret the rules differently, but not that my interpretation is a house rule. As far as I can see, it is the rules, pure and simple.

 

[Kurotowa]

I am willing to say we interpret the rules differently, but not that my interpretation is a house rule. As far as I can see, it is the rules, pure and simple.

I stick to the meta-rule, "Don't be an annoying twink." Pulling out a PrC with an accelerated caster progression balanced by other factors and trying to use just that caster progression is twinkery. Since the book's author has gone on the recond as saying this wasn't his intent, since it goes against both common sense and basic game balance, since deliberately reading an advantageous interpritation of vague rules is entirely graceless, I wouldn't consider allowing it in my game or attempting it with my PC for a moment.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

On the WotC boards, the designers went back and lookedover that ability and decided that it wasn't broken, given a RAW campaign that allowed characters to buy items.

The Warlock is giving up a feat, money, XP, and time for a scroll any other character could go out and buy. He's purchased or created a custom item giving him +10 to a skill check. If he's taken Skill Focus he's given up ANOTHER feat. He's put full ranks into a skill (of his 2 SP a level!). He's used up alot of character resources to do this one thing.

Which is one of the things that keep Warlocks in the running at later levels, since their EB damage sort of turns to crud compared to other classes' abilities to put it out.

--fje

...if they ever get to the later levels, considering how many XP you'd need to blow in order to keep up that kind of scroll output. Assuming you have infinite gold. Which you don't.

 

[Unkabear]

Warlock

at higher levels a Warlock/rogue could deal out heavy damage. using retributive invisibility EB and liberal use of Sneack Attack lets the Warlock/Rogue deal out a healthy 15d6 damage per hit. With the greater blast shape evocation eldritch cone you have a chance of hitting several people at a time with it and with the dark shape eldritch doom you hit everyone within a 20' radius with this damage. Though I will admit that you must play the character a long while before you reap this benefit. but the heaping of skill points, ability to make your own scrolls, and the rogues sneaky abilities you can make one valuable party member.