Warlocks and Forced Teleportation

[Kalthanis]

My extreme apologies if this has been covered somewhere before. I looked through 5 pages of 4th ED topics and didn't see it.

This is going to be a multiple part question, but I think it's easier if I describe the problem as a whole. I'm hoping someone can point out what I'm doing wrong.

I have a warlock in my Paragon level Party. What he likes to do, as an encounter, is hit enemies with Will of the Feywild, teleport them into the air so that they can then drop to the ground for falling damage, and it's now Prone (from the fall) and Dazed (from the power).

We got to this problem when we started thinking about 3 dimensional ranges, and the thought was that if squares counted diagonally aren't any more than squares counted forward, then a bow could fire an arrow 20 squares (or 100 ft) into the air AND 20 squares out before hitting range penalties. We also didn't think the target was allowed a saving throw, being unable to 'catch himself on the edge' from however many squares out the target now found himself.

Are we doing something wrong here? He's got a magic item that increases his teleporting range by 4, so when he teleports a foe, he teleports that foe 9 squares diagonally up and over. Takes the power from a 2d8 + CHA mod... to a 2d8 + 4d10 + CHA mod. And that's if they are fighting on an even ground, or if he's not dropping them into a Wall of Fire or Stinking Cloud or something. Or off the edge of a cliff.

I believe we are allowing the power to be more powerful than it is intended to be. What have I missed?

 

[hvg3akaek]

I would follow the "Forced Movement" rules for agressive teleportation. (PHB p285). Specifically, "You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically."

The teleportation rules as given in the PHB are for personal teleportation (note how it is written: "your movement"; "your destination").

 

[Kalthanis]

That is true that it says your movement, but then it doesn't really say you have to be initiating it. If you are being teleported against your will, you still have to follow those rules. At least that's what we determined.

A further problem is that, I suppose early on, we determined that Teleportation didn't count as a Push, Pull, or Slide... under which the rules for Forced Movement are written. So we thought that since Forced Movement was a subset of those entries, that those rules didn't apply to teleportation?

I do agree though, merely applying the Forced Movement rules to Teleportation would solve some of the problems.

 

[Ryujin]

Well the simplest thing to do is treat being teleported up as a forced move into "hindering terrain", which would give a saving throw. The second is what we have done; state that you have to teleport on the same horizontal plane so you can 'force' a foe over a cliff, but not into the air.

And yes, you're making it more powerful than intended.

 

[Markn]

I think you are on dangerous ground with teleporting vertically. Personally, I think that is exploiting the power and I wouldn't allow it. I play a Warlock and had similar ideas but it just doesn't sit right with me and so I don't do it.

If you keep using it going forward I'd consider a few things. Whats to stop the player from teleporting the person over a cliff (using the diagnal method you have)? And more importantly, whats to stop the DM using the same trick on you? It would suck to lose a character because the DM can just "kill" you by teleporting you over a cliff.

If your group can come up to reasonable answers to those questions and you want to play it that way, then hey, all the power to you - it's your game.

Now if you are asking if its RAW? My answer would be no. Is it RAI? Again, in my opinion the answer would also be no. Others may disagree but thats my 2cp.

 

[Ryujin]

I think you are on dangerous ground with teleporting vertically. Personally, I think that is exploiting the power and I wouldn't allow it. I play a Warlock and had similar ideas but it just doesn't sit right with me and so I don't do it.

If you keep using it going forward I'd consider a few things. Whats to stop the player from teleporting the person over a cliff (using the diagnal method you have)? And more importantly, whats to stop the DM using the same trick on you? It would suck to lose a character because the DM can just "kill" you by teleporting you over a cliff.

If your group can come up to reasonable answers to those questions and you want to play it that way, then hey, all the power to you - it's your game.

Now if you are asking if its RAW? My answer would be no. Is it RAI? Again, in my opinion the answer would also be no. Others may disagree but thats my 2cp.

That's the best stick to use; if you can do it to them, then they can do it to you. It should stop the (ab)use dead in its tracks, because there are a lot more of them than PCs.

When used in the horizontal, teleporting becomes not a whole lot better than other forced movement. And that's what it is; forced movement. We darned near had several party members pushed off a 60 foot drop in our last session with regular forced movement. There are ways to stop, or mitigate that.

 

[Kalthanis]

Well that's the thing.

I could be aggressive about it. "Okay the party comes across a bridge that's 300 ft high. Your two opponents are a PC Avenger and a PC Warlock." Avenger runs in and uses that power that allows him to Burst 2: Teleport all enemies 2 squares. Whoops, dead party. Also, Orcus shows up, just in case.

But I don't want to do that. I think I've found my answer in that, although the RAW doesn't state it specifically, teleportation by another is considered Forced Movement, and will use those rules.

Thank you everyone for your help and input.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I think that we can all agree that allowing a forced teleportation power to teleport an opponent vertically, unless the power specifically states it can be used as such, is against the rules. In every possible case, it makes the power more powerful than other powers of its level.

 

[N0Man]

But I don't want to do that. I think I've found my answer in that, although the RAW doesn't state it specifically, teleportation by another is considered Forced Movement, and will use those rules.

Yeah, I think it's clear to say that it wasn't the intent to have players teleport people up into mid-air, though I think there should be different limitations on forced teleportation than movement, but this is one of those times that the DM just has to decide what they believe follows the intention of the rules, or that they believe is fair. It's a judgment call, and sometimes it's based on the circumstances.

I'd allow for teleportation of someone onto a high (and potentially dangerous) ledge, especially as part of some intimidation attempt. I would not allow regular use of teleporting straight up for extra damage.

I'd allow forced teleportation of someone into an empty prison cell (to the other side of the bars). I would not allow a Warlock to teleport an enemy into a steel cage that he's lugging around behind him on a Tensor's Disk.

I'm debating it, but I think I'm even ok with using a teleport to put someone *1* square off an edge, in the same way an npc can be pushed off an edge, but allow them a saving throw just like a Push would.

However, keep this in mind always: If a use of a power is so cheesey that the players would complain and feel cheated if you used it against them, then don't let the players use it against the NPCs. You can ask them hypothetically, or you can let them have a taste. I think being upfront and asking is the more diplomatic approach, but the latter is more dramatic and probably more convincing.

 

[hvg3akaek]

If you are being teleported against your will, you still have to follow those rules. At least that's what we determined.

Just a quick aside - it is the person doing the teleport that must see the start / finish locations. If you are blind, you cannot teleport, you cannot teleport someone else, but you still can be teleported.

So it is not the one teleporting that needs to follow the rules, but the one making the teleport happening. They may be the same person, but when they are not, it is the caster that needs to follow the rules.