Warlocks = evil?

[Terramotus]

AFAIC, it can't. This has been discussed before and, as frankthedm posits, some people feel you can use an evil (or "just feral") power source for good ends. I don't see it that way. If you really wanted to be good, every other class (not just paladin) can be "Good" with a capital-G. You could have been a Wizard or a Ranger, but you chose to make a deal with a demon.

As others have mentioned, you could write into your character history that you were "tricked" into entering into the pact, or somehow "destiny" caused you to be a Warlock, or your parents sold your soul to a demon on your behalf (the plot of a current TV show, apparently), but really, how often can this happen? As character backgrounds go, I think it would get old to always have to come up for reasons why you're not evil.

And that still doesn't explain why you keep using your ability to ruin people's souls. Not evil? I don't think so.

Let's take the label "evil", and all of the different definitions thereof, out of the arrangement, especially since it's been stated that most players will be unaligned in 4E.

The real question, I think, is can a Warlock using an evil power source be a hero? As long as the forces he has a pact with don't require constant havoc to be wreaked on their behalf, I think he probably can, at least to some people. He may be using a power called Soul Ruin, but maybe he's using it on that tribe of ugly giant things that are stealing our children in the middle of the night and crushing the farmsteads of people I've known all my life. If he does that, he's my hero.

Depending on looks, he might be shunned when he enters the town, but that's just good drama from a game standpoint. And yeah, maybe in the long term he's increasing the overall suffering in the world. That doesn't mean everyone's going to hate him, and, besides, people make bad choices all the time. It reminds me a lot of Elric - regardless of what you think of him, I don't think I'd personally term him unredeemably evil. In fact, I'm betting that with the right feats you'll be able to make a decent facsimile of him in 4E as a Warlock who wears armor and uses swords.

It all depends on what kind of game you want to run and what kind of players you have. You might not allow that sort of thing to go on at all, or you might just be running a different kind of game. That said, I would be absolutely shocked if there were only evil or neutral power sources to draw upon for the Warlock.

 

[Xethreau]

Well, given the actual definition of "Warlock" in the real world (Oathbreaker), I suspect that it will have a kind of Evil bent.

Perhaps in Wiccan circles, but most non-Wiccans see 'warlocks' as just another word for 'wizard,' 'sorcerer,' or 'witch.'

(That is not intended to sound offensive. I happen to hold a high degree of respect for Wiccans.)

 

[Voss]

I liked the flavor of warlocks, much like I enjoyed the flavor of sorcerers. The 3e implementations of both have been... rather underwhelming.

I'm not too concerned about the alignment issue. Happily it looks like they're finally uncoupling character morality from the chains of the barely workable alignment system. A vs B plus X vs Y just didn't provide a lot of options, especially since a consistent value for A, B, X or Y was beyond everyone involved.

 

[Spinachcat]

ToM is the go to source for spoilers here.

Assuming that 4e uses the same definition as ToM, what is the explanation in the ToM about how the inherently evil sounding Warlocks can actually be LG / CG / NG?

 

[Gloombunny]

Well, given the actual definition of "Warlock" in the real world (Oathbreaker), I suspect that it will have a kind of Evil bent.

I would say that oathbreaking sounds chaotic, not evil, for whatever that's worth.



I think there'll be little trouble making good-guy warlocks. They won't be shiny white-hatted good guys, no. Even the non-demonic entities they can draw power from don't sound especially pleasant. A warlock will not be the kind of guy you want babysitting your children. He probably won't even be the kind of guy you want to chat with at a party. That doesn't mean he won't be the kind of guy you want hunting down the orcish raiders that are marauding through your country.

Good is not the same thing as nice.


(And, for crap's sake, this game already features wizards who burn their enemies alive or drench them in acid. Have you seen what that kind of thing does to people? It's beyond horrific. I'll be pretty damn impressed if WotC can come up with warlock powers that are even nastier than that.)

 

[Irda Ranger]

Irda Ranger, have you read Tome of Magic? Right there is your answer as to how you can use evilish sounding stuff without being evil at all.

No, I haven't, but I really don't think it matters. I understand your arguments, and still disagree with them. If the posters on EN World who have defended the "dealing with demons can be good" are representative of the ToM, then the ToM is "wrong" too.

Right now, my binder is bound to Acerak - Y'know the demilich from Tomb of Horrors? Yet, he's not evil.

See above. Just 'cause you say he's not evil doesn't mean I agree with you. To me, dealing with Demons is "Evil", and the ends you seek to achieve simply do not justify the means, no matter how much you want them to.

People have also mentioned Spawn, Batman and some other "morally ambiguous" comic-book protagonists who can be seen as having "dealt with the devil." As for that, I only have two things to say:
1. D&D world is a lot more "black and white" than the real world (where most comic-books purportedly take place). As far as I can tell, demons don't actually exist in the real world. But the do in D&D world; and they're capital-E Evil. It says so right in the MM.
2. Some of those comic-book examples are evil too. See above about ends and means.

It remains to be seen whether infernal Warlocks can be good, of if "Shadowy" or "Feral" Warlocks can display the ethical flexibility of the other classes (such as the Cleric and, for the first time in a Core PHB, the Paladin). I am sure disappointed though in the lack of clearly "Good" choices for the Warlock. Clerics and Paladins can chose to worship Bahamut or Tiamat, but where are the Angelic pacts?

 

[FireLance]

How can this class be most any alignnment?

How can this class play nice-nice with a good-aligned character in the party?

My current planned solution is to house-rule the warlock so that it can make pacts with celestials or other good-aligned entities or forces (such as the Silver Flame in Eberron).

I'm toying with the idea of warlocks who have made pacts with good entities still retaining a somewhat darker aspect by embodying the less forgiving elements of good such as wrath and justice.

 

[zephen18]

I'm reminded of a certain anime series named Slayers. It's a Fantasy/Comedy that takes a lot of pokes at the D&D escque genre. The main character Lina, is a Sorceress that uses black magic. Black magic is drawn upon the evil monster race. Insofar that even her biggest spells draw upon the power of the Dark God of the monster race and another more powerful being called the Lord of Nightmares. Lina may not be the most shinning example of the forces of good, but she is defiinitely isn't aligned to the monster race and saves the world on more than one occasion.

My point being is that I don't see why warlocks can't be any diferent. If the player wishes that is.

 

[Hussar]

Assuming that 4e uses the same definition as ToM, what is the explanation in the ToM about how the inherently evil sounding Warlocks can actually be LG / CG / NG?

The vestiges that are used in Tome of Magic aren't living beings. They are, well, the term is vestiges - memories of very powerful beings that are denied a true death and are now somewhat existing outside reality. They have no power and no way to ever return to existence. What binders do is tap into that memory and gain powers from the vestige. The powers are not good or evil and the vestiges are so far beyond reality that they are now no longer really aligned.

Take a look at the Exerpts from ToM which explain it better than I can and you might get a better sense of where they are going with this.

 

[Bishmon]

The warlock being made core and seemingly still only drawing from dark power sources is easily one of my biggest disappointments for 4E. I'm sure there will be more options eventually like how they added draconic and celestial powers to the warlock via the dragonfire adept class and enlightened soul PrC. I'm just disappointed that they're not bringing those options with the warlock as he moves to 4E.