D&D General Warlocks' patrons vs. Paladin Oaths and Cleric Deities

[Maxperson]

Which is entirely meaningless as a statement. Can I claim that if I use houserules in character creation that those houserules exist in your world because they exist somewhere? No, of course not.

So we have, in any particular world, a bare handful of Fighters (class), and a whole load of fighters (english word). And just like the real world, where not every EMT, bricklayer, coder, bookseller, garbage man, middle manager, actuary, nor HR rep has the same progression, neither do "fighters" in world.

It's not meaningless.

First, house rules are unique/semi-unique rules at specific tables. The rules I'm referring to are the default rules for the game. The default rules apply to every table unless specifically changed by the DM. House rules specifically do not unless adopted by the DM. That's a very important difference.

Second, regardless of how many fighters the class there are in a specific world, and depending on the DM it could be anywhere from 1 to millions(PCs and NPCs with class levels), all PC fighters use the same progression. Just like all NPC Bandit Captains use the same progression. The problem of PCs and NPCs using the same progression still applies to both.

 

[Maxperson]

Never mind.

 

[Maxperson]

Where is the desire for druids to fight other druids to gain levels? For monks to remain poor and donate all but a fraction of their treasure to worthy causes? For rangers to be good aligned and only own what they can carry? For barbarians to be illiterate and not be able to rage if they become lawful? (Or better, attack magic users on sight!) For bards to follow druidic teachings and be partially neutral?

No idea. None of this is related to any prior edition. This is all about 5e and what 5e says. People incorrectly trying to connect it to prior editions is most, if not all of the problem, depending on the person.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yet for some reason it's not an issue for the thousands of PCs that receive the same training and same growth in abilities in exactly the same order. Why are NPCs different?

But there aren't thousands PCs in the campaign world. There are only a few dozens at best (sometimes single digits only even!), even in a long-running campaign with many switching characters and players.

 

[TwoSix]

I had a player change their paladin from oath of the crown to oath of vengeance when the sudden but inevitable betrayal occurred. But it’s not something I would force on a player and it was a natural consequence of events in the game.

I've had players completely rebuild characters from the ground up (new race and class) due to events within the campaign. To my mind, that should be a relatively common thing in D&D games.

 

[Maxperson]

But there aren't thousands PCs in the campaign world. There are only a few dozens at best (sometimes single digits only even!), even in a long-running campaign with many switching characters and players.

So which game in all the world running the PHB classes can I join and not progress my fighters in exactly the same manner as every other game running PHB classes?

Besides, if you guys are going to be pedantic about them being spread out over many campaign worlds, then I would probably have to point out that dozens with identical progression is still dozens of times more frequent than any NPC out there, since NPCs don't progress unless you give them PC classes and levels.

 

[TwoSix]

So which game in all the world running the PHB classes can I join and not progress my fighters in exactly the same manner as every other game running PHB classes?

Besides, if you guys are going to be pedantic about them being spread out over many campaign worlds, then I would probably have to point out that dozens with identical progression is still dozens of times more frequent than any NPC out there, since NPCs don't progress unless you give them PC classes and levels.

I'll be honest, I've lost track of what this argument is about.

What's your core argument?

 

[Maxperson]

I'll be honest, I've lost track of what this argument is about.

What's your core argument?

You brought up NPCs as annoying because they have the same abilities, progression, etc. as every other one of their type. I was just pointing out that the same issue occurs with PCs, which I also find annoying. For clarity, I also find identical NPCs to be annoying.

 

[TwoSix]

You brought up NPCs as annoying because they have the same abilities, progression, etc. as every other one of their type. I was just pointing out that the same issue occurs with PCs, which I also find annoying. For clarity, I also find identical NPCs to be annoying.

Sure. My core approach for 5e (and 3e and 4e before that) is that every character in the setting, PC and NPC alike, are unique. The class rules are simply a gameable model of options that are open to players at the start of the game, and are only a small subset of the limitless options that are actually available within the fiction.

Terms used within the fiction to describe archetypes of characters (like mage, or wizard, or priest) only have a loose connection to the class-building rules at best. As an example, every "wizard" at a wizard academy must have some unifying traits, like using their Intelligence to cast spells that are stored in a written, transmittable form, but the actual progression of a character's powers is unique (or at least not widely common).

I can and do allow for homebrew classes, prestige-type classes, custom feats, class transformations, and template-like boons to reflect each character's unique journey.

I also rarely use the Monster Manual, preferring to build my own encounters, and I've never used the godawful "humanoid templates" found within except as a loose inspirational starting point.

 

[GobHag]

So which game in all the world running the PHB classes can I join and not progress my fighters in exactly the same manner as every other game running PHB classes?

Besides, if you guys are going to be pedantic about them being spread out over many campaign worlds, then I would probably have to point out that dozens with identical progression is still dozens of times more frequent than any NPC out there, since NPCs don't progress unless you give them PC classes and levels.

You can join a table where a Fighter arbritarily levels up according to the DMs whims, You can find a table where levels up are goal/story beat specific, you can join a table where they follow XP suggestions.