i was looking at the new exotic weapons and i saw the maul and warmace in complete warrior (to one handed exotic weapons maul 1d10 and warmace 1d12). The warmace gives u -1 penalty to your Ac because it weighs to much( it weighs 10 lbs) and the maul weighs 20lbs and gives no penalty. Does that make sense?
warmace and maul
- Thread starter vince33
- Start date
Shin Okada
Explorer
Maybe warmace is more top-heavy.
It makes more sence than 160 lbs Maul of Titans which can be usable as a medium +3 greatclub, while 120 lbs Mattok of Titans is colossal +3 Adamantine Warhammer (though 2-foot longer).
Yeah I know those are magic items ... but ....
It makes more sence than 160 lbs Maul of Titans which can be usable as a medium +3 greatclub, while 120 lbs Mattok of Titans is colossal +3 Adamantine Warhammer (though 2-foot longer).
Yeah I know those are magic items ... but ....
I have to agree with Tetsubo on the weights of D -n- D weapons. They have been a pet peeve of mine for quite a long time. They are just plain off and mostly wrong. I own a number of swords that are acurate productions of weapons and my hand and ahalf or "bastard" sword doesn't weight nearly what the PHB says it should.
So yeah maybe it is a a blanace issue because of where the weight is located and what not.
So yeah maybe it is a a blanace issue because of where the weight is located and what not.
Shin Okada
Explorer
In my understanding, it is quite true that weights of weapons and armors are often quite inaccurate. But there can be another reason. I don't know much about history of AD&D, but in chromatic D&Ds, IIRC, it was "encumbrance", not "weight". Sword and other weapons are considered to be more "cumbersome" comparing to a mass of gold coins of same weight. Thus, "encumbrance" of a sword is much "heavier" than its real weight.
Tetsubo
First Post
Shin Okada said:
I might buy that argument if they didn't list the physical stat as "weight". If it is the encumbrance of the item it should be listed as such. They've had four editions to make that correction. And they still keep calling it "weight". After thirty years I get he feeling they mean "weight"...
The weights of D&D weapons could only have been published by someone who has NEVER actually held a weapon in their hand... Or ever opened a decent weapon reference book. Heck, Stone's is wildly inaccurate and it would still have been better than what gets printed in D&D books...
Can't remember if the maul is one handed or not... it doesn't really matter either... what matters is where weight is located... With a Maul you're holding it close to the 'head' else you would need to hold it in too hands.
With a Warmace.. the weight is located in the Head.. but you have to hold in the other end.. hence with will feel alot heavier..and hard to wield. Think of a vippe(is it called that) Well.. small children sitting on one end of a long board gonig up and down... Anyway.. They closer you get to the middle the less 'effektive' weight are you putting on the 'vippe'... So for a child weighting 40 lb to sit in the far end and child weighting 80lb sitting halfway on his site. If they both have the same effektive weight more or less... And its the same princible with the Maul and Warmace
The -1 ac on the Warmace is for a balance purpose.. And they had to give it an explaination of some kind.
With a Warmace.. the weight is located in the Head.. but you have to hold in the other end.. hence with will feel alot heavier..and hard to wield. Think of a vippe(is it called that) Well.. small children sitting on one end of a long board gonig up and down... Anyway.. They closer you get to the middle the less 'effektive' weight are you putting on the 'vippe'... So for a child weighting 40 lb to sit in the far end and child weighting 80lb sitting halfway on his site. If they both have the same effektive weight more or less... And its the same princible with the Maul and Warmace
The -1 ac on the Warmace is for a balance purpose.. And they had to give it an explaination of some kind.
Nonlethal Force
First Post
According to the CW text - "a maul is too large to use in one hand without special training (the appropriate EWP feat). A character can use the maul two handed as a martial weapon.
By the way, the same sentence is in the warmace section as well, just change maul to warmace.
As others have said - the -1 to AC balances the fact that it could be a d12 one-handed weapon. For the upgrade from d10 to d12 the player takes a hit to AC. That's really all that is going on.
By the way, the same sentence is in the warmace section as well, just change maul to warmace.
As others have said - the -1 to AC balances the fact that it could be a d12 one-handed weapon. For the upgrade from d10 to d12 the player takes a hit to AC. That's really all that is going on.
When introduced in Sword & Fist, the Maul was a 2 handed martial weapon.
In CW, its a 1 handed exotic weapon (usable in 2 hands as a martial weapon).
In both sources, it weighs the same 10lbs.
The Warmace, introduced in CW, is 1d12 and 20lbs.
If you must, you can HR a switch between stats of the 2 weapons, so the Maul becomes a 20lb 1 handed exotic weapon (usable in 2 hands as a martial weapon) doing 1d12 damage and taking the -1 to AC while the Warmace is the 10 lb 1 handed exotic weapon (usable in 2 hands as a martial weapon) doing 1d10 and having no AC penalty.
This one had bothered me for quite a while, until I thought about it thus:
A typical sledgehammer for construction/wrecking purposes has a 8-10lb head. I bowl with a 16lb ball. The difference is that the 10lbs is at the end of a 2.5-3' haft, while the bowling ball is in my hand- physically similar to the Warmace in that the mass is located close to the hand.
And yet that sledgehammer is a little easier to swing around than that bowling ball. Its made to be swung around at a target at 2x arm's length.
If anybody wants to try an empirical test, go to your bowling alley and ask if you can have the most beat-up 16 lb (maximum weight allowed by the rules, btw) house ball they have for an experiment. Then just find a way to put a heavy-duty handle onto it. Or, of course, you could try swinging a 20lb barbell around in the gym (if they don't kick you out...). It will probably feel VERY unwieldy.
I suspect that unwieldiness would dissapear with training, however.
However, in D&D, there's no difference in a weapon that extends your reach 12" and one that extends your reach 3'..."Reach" doesn't exist as a weapon quality until you're talking 5' or more in length.
So...in order to make the 2 weapons balance out, it was neccessary to penalize the Warmace, since the Maul didn't have any additional benefit over the Warmace, despite its lighter weight and longer reach.
In CW, its a 1 handed exotic weapon (usable in 2 hands as a martial weapon).
In both sources, it weighs the same 10lbs.
The Warmace, introduced in CW, is 1d12 and 20lbs.
If you must, you can HR a switch between stats of the 2 weapons, so the Maul becomes a 20lb 1 handed exotic weapon (usable in 2 hands as a martial weapon) doing 1d12 damage and taking the -1 to AC while the Warmace is the 10 lb 1 handed exotic weapon (usable in 2 hands as a martial weapon) doing 1d10 and having no AC penalty.
This one had bothered me for quite a while, until I thought about it thus:
A typical sledgehammer for construction/wrecking purposes has a 8-10lb head. I bowl with a 16lb ball. The difference is that the 10lbs is at the end of a 2.5-3' haft, while the bowling ball is in my hand- physically similar to the Warmace in that the mass is located close to the hand.
And yet that sledgehammer is a little easier to swing around than that bowling ball. Its made to be swung around at a target at 2x arm's length.
If anybody wants to try an empirical test, go to your bowling alley and ask if you can have the most beat-up 16 lb (maximum weight allowed by the rules, btw) house ball they have for an experiment. Then just find a way to put a heavy-duty handle onto it. Or, of course, you could try swinging a 20lb barbell around in the gym (if they don't kick you out...). It will probably feel VERY unwieldy.
I suspect that unwieldiness would dissapear with training, however.
However, in D&D, there's no difference in a weapon that extends your reach 12" and one that extends your reach 3'..."Reach" doesn't exist as a weapon quality until you're talking 5' or more in length.
So...in order to make the 2 weapons balance out, it was neccessary to penalize the Warmace, since the Maul didn't have any additional benefit over the Warmace, despite its lighter weight and longer reach.
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