Warmage...too weak? (Survivability)

[dvvega]

I played a warmage and he got done over by a crack team of trip experts (since I was decimating a lot of the opposition). He was the 5th character in the party ... and we had a specialist conjurer as the main arcane caster.

IMHO he was extremely powerful. I had a lot of spells per day that were focused on destruction. I could lay down a barrage of effects before we got within melee range and by then the front line fighters were the mop-up crew. The biggest advantage I found however was the feat selection.

I had been wanted to try Born of 3 Thunders since reading it ... sounded cool ... cool is an understatement. The number of stuns that worked on opponents was high (lucky maybe) and it allowed front line melee to just hack the creatures to bits. "Level Boss" style creatures would get stunned by me and then Charged by the charge-build Barbarian. What was left couldn't stand up to anything the rest of the party dished out.

Versatility in combat choice was great. If we didn't have a knock spell I had that many left over spells that I could waste one of blowing a door off its hinges.

I played a straight warmage, no PrCs, Human, 3 Thunders requirements taken - I did have a high number of HP as well due to a high CON and great rolling but it didn't matter (I rarely got anywhere near melee until the monk squad of doom got me).

D

 

[Thurbane]

I'm not disputing the damage output of Warmages, I'm more concerned about their survivability. I'm currently playing an Evoker, and without my defensive spells, I would likely be dead many time over already. I can't imagine light armor, a shield and an extra 1hp/level on average would have done as much to keep me alive.

...maybe I'm just being overcautious...

 

[JRR_Talking]

My LG warmage has AC 18 starting.
Before i cast a spell.

No wizard / sorceror can walk round like that all day until a few levels time.
It cant be dispelled, though my touch AC will always be pretty poor.

As long as you remember you are a magician, they should be ok.

 

[Kat']

I'm not disputing the damage output of Warmages, I'm more concerned about their survivability.

I'd be concerned about both. At low levels the Warmage's damage output is very good, no doubt, but then again, Evocation magic is more useful at low levels, we already knew this before the Warmage came out. At high levels... meh. Only the orbs are good, because they don't allow a save. Count that every monster has some kind of energy resistance or some spell resistance, and you're better off buffing the party's fighter when it comes to damage output.

You wanna see a Warmage cry, throw in a Finesse Drow Hexblade with a Ring of Evasion as your BBEG. Or heck, a Paladin specialized in mounted combat. Even if you can bypass its SR, he is still entitled a saving throw which he is likely to succeed, and has Mettle and Evasion.

My LG warmage has AC 18 starting.
Before i cast a spell.

No wizard / sorceror can walk round like that all day until a few levels time.
It cant be dispelled, though my touch AC will always be pretty poor.

As long as you remember you are a magician, they should be ok.

My word, in fact. AC 18 is good at low levels, no problem. Once you reach higher levels - say, 6th - it's not that good any longer (a good 6th level fighter can hit at +12/+7 at this level). Anyway, at higher levels the frontliners ALWAYS hit, because To Hit modifiers increase so much faster than AC. So what do you need AC for, past these levels? If the enemy fighter has you, you're dead. In comparison, a straight wizard or sorceror would certainly have an Invisibility or Mirror Image somewhere to save his butt.

 

[Dice4Hire]

There's actually an alternate class ability in PHBII that allows this: Eclectic Learning. Unfortunately, a spell you learn with it counts as being one level higher than it really is, which really, really, really sucks.

That ability is excellent. The normal warmage learning is worse than useless. Eclectic learning is awesome.

 

[Drowbane]

Drowbane, don't hold back, tell us what you really think!

Hah!

BS is playable, but it loses so much for what... armor and a better BAB? Meh.

 

[SteveC]

Having played a warmage all the way to 15th level, I can say that they're just fine, with a major provision:

They're not wizards, so don't play them that way.

A warmage is mobile artillery, and very good artillery. They don't teleport, scry, identify or buff. They just blow stuff up. That's it.

Now in D&D, there are a surprising number of problems that can be solved by blowing things up, so this is usually not a problem.

It BECOMES a problem when you are the only arcane spellcasting class, since the warmage can give the impression of being a real caster when they're in combat, because they have a very high damage output.

For defense purposes, they have decent defenses against melee attackers with Ring of Blades and Fireburst, but they are vulnerable to ranged attacks. Of course they have the same problems as a lot of other classes in this regard, and a few simple magic items can remove the problem to a major extent...but you have to know that it's there.

So I'd say ignore the nay-sayers and go for it! I usually play highly versatile characters who can solve problems in a variety of ways, but I have to say that even a few years later my warmage character still remains a favorite of mine.

--Steve

 

[JRR_Talking]

You wanna see a Warmage cry, throw in a Finesse Drow Hexblade with a Ring of Evasion as your BBEG. Or heck, a Paladin specialized in mounted combat. Even if you can bypass its SR, he is still entitled a saving throw which he is likely to succeed, and has Mettle and Evasion.

i drop a couple of hail of stone on the drow while hiding behind the party cleric like a good mage OR i do something horrible to the paladins horse.

My word, in fact. AC 18 is good at low levels, no problem. Once you reach higher levels - say, 6th - it's not that good any longer (a good 6th level fighter can hit at +12/+7 at this level).

by 6th in LG my AC would be around 23 or so , so hit maybe once per round....if i sense him power attacking i go full defence and hope to be rescued b4 im hit!

dont start playing him till next week so will see how it goes i guess....

ta for inputs

John

 

[drothgery]

I'd be concerned about both. At low levels the Warmage's damage output is very good, no doubt, but then again, Evocation magic is more useful at low levels, we already knew this before the Warmage came out. At high levels... meh. Only the orbs are good, because they don't allow a save. Count that every monster has some kind of energy resistance or some spell resistance, and you're better off buffing the party's fighter when it comes to damage output.

I get a lot of mileage out of Blast of Flame and Arc of Lightning (no SR), Acid Fog (unavoidable crowd control), Waves of Exhaustion (handy debuff), Horrid Wilting (non-energy, only hits the bad guys, hits all of them), and Polar Ray (when you just want to hit one guy hard).

And while a really good AC (and by virtue of being a sword and board guy, and therefore having the ability to use the cheapest method in the game for getting a high AC, a warmage should have a really good AC once mid-level magic becomes affordable) does have limitted use against high-level opponents, it does mean you can't be Power Attacked easily, and that counts for something. And that itterative attacks will probably miss. Besides, you can get a relatively cheap magic item to be able to fly, and that goes a long way in keeping brutes from squishing your warmage.

 

[rgard]

Hah!

BS is playable, but it loses so much for what... armor and a better BAB? Meh.

Fair enough, but there is also the better hp too...D8. I personally like the BS. I've played one over 2 years now: Swashbuckler 3/Martial Rogue 2/Battle Sorcerer 17. I lessend the blow of 1 less spell known per level by taking the Anarchic Bloodline feat from the Dragon Compendium which gives you a list of extra spells known, one for each spell level.

That is a feat slot and feats are scarce for Battle Sorcerers and Sorcerers, but I found it worth it.

Thanks,
Rich