Warmind Nuances: Manifester Level and PP

[Rae ArdGaoth]

We're having some trouble deciding something in the Living ENWorld game. We have a 5th level Psychic Warrior taking her first level in War Mind. The question is whether she manifests her War Mind powers at her PsyWar level (5th) or her War Mind level (1st). The text says:

Powers Known

A war mind chooses his powers from the psychic warrior power list. At 1st level, a war mind knows one psychic warrior power of your choice. At every even-numbered level higher than 1st, he learns one new power. A war mind can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level. ...

It's clear that when a fighter takes War Mind levels, his manifester level is 1st. And even a psion would manifest his War Mind powers at ML1. But is the PsyWar different, since the powers are from the same list?

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Second, this line from the SRD seems wrong:

Bonus power points from having a high ability score can be gained only for the character’s highest psionic class.

One other psionic prestige class (the Psionic Fist) has the same line. This doesn't make sense to me, is it right? Is it an errata? Should it be?

Thanks for your insights, everybody.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear in my description of the problem. The question really is: Can a PsyWar/WarMind manifest his WarMind powers as a PsyWar, thus gaining the benefits of a higher ML?

Here are some relevant quotes from the SRD.

Any psionic character, including a psychic warrior "can select any power you know, provided you are capable of manifesting powers of that level or higher."

"A psychic warrior begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As he attains higher levels, he may gain the ability to master more complex powers. To learn or manifest a power, a psychic warrior must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the power's level."

" Choose the powers known from the psychic warrior power list. (Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge do allow a psychic warrior to learn powers from the lists of other classes.) A psychic warrior can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level."

 

[Nifft]

Warmind has its own manifesting progression. It's like Psion or Wilder: it does not stack with PsyWar. Yes, this makes Warmind kinda stinky for the manifestation-oriented PsyWar. Oh well.

Power points pool, of course, but you'll need to track which Powers come from which source, since your manifester level (and thus power point cap) is separate for each set.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

But is the PsyWar different, since the powers are from the same list?

Psions and Wilders draw from the same power list.

Multiclassing them does not stack manifester levels.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

Power points pool, of course, but you'll need to track which Powers come from which source, since your manifester level (and thus power point cap) is separate for each set.

This applies only to boosting powers by spending additional pp on a single manifestation, right?

Also, I think the nuance is that the War Mind specifically draws his powers from the Psychic Warrior's list, and the PsW 5/WMd 1 character can manifest Psychic Warrior powers at 5th level. So it makes some sense that he could manifest War Mind powers (which are Psychic Warrior powers) at level 5 as well.

But you say not. It does make sense, but it seems unnecessarily weak for the PsW/WMd combo, a rational progression of classes, I would think.

 

[Kat']

Wizards and Sorcerers draw their spells from the same list, yet the caster levels of a Wizard/Sorcerer (ugh...) would not stack. Same for PsyWar / War Mind. His Psychic Warrior manifester level is separate from his War Mind manifester level. That's IMO the reason why War Mind is not a good PrC for a Psychic Warrior.

 

[sukael]

Second, this line from the SRD seems wrong:
One other psionic prestige class (the Psionic Fist) has the same line. This doesn't make sense to me, is it right? Is it an errata? Should it be?

This one's definitely wrong. I think it's in the errata somewhere.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Wizards and Sorcerers draw their spells from the same list, yet the caster levels of a Wizard/Sorcerer (ugh...) would not stack. Same for PsyWar / War Mind. His Psychic Warrior manifester level is separate from his War Mind manifester level. That's IMO the reason why War Mind is not a good PrC for a Psychic Warrior.

They clearly would never stack, but I don't think there is any wording in the XPH that actually prevents the Psywar/Warmind from manifesting the Warmind powers as a Psywar from the combined PP pool--it isn't like the Wizard/Sorcerer where the barrier of entry is the separate slots. That said, the other way is clearly possible from some pretty reasonable interpretation of intent, but since as you say the Psywar/Warmind is a fairly awful combo, I'm inclined to err in favour of the poor Psywar/Warmind (I would not err this way if the character in question was a single-class Cleric or Druid or something though)

 

[Kat']

We're talking about two different things here. First thing is the power point reserve, other is the manifester level. The power points reserve is a large pool where all PP gained from all psionic classes go. SRD says:

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.

But it also says:

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know.

If you play a PsyWar/Warmind, you are limited in each of your classes by the ML you reached in this particular class. So if you're PW 5 / WM 1 you have a ML 5 with powers granted by your psychic warrior class and ML 1 with powers granted by your war mind class, because War Mind has a separate manifesting ability. It's not the same thing as with a class granting +1 to an existing manifester level (such as, say, Elocater). Clearer now?

but since as you say the Psywar/Warmind is a fairly awful combo, I'm inclined to err in favour of the poor Psywar/Warmind (I would not err this way if the character in question was a single-class Cleric or Druid or something though)

Your choice, but there's no reason to do so. Warmind is a good class per se, and even with a PsyWar it's not bad, it's just sub-optimal compared to staying a straight PsyWar. Warmind is a bad choice if you come from a class with existing spellcasting or manifesting abilities, because it stops your spellcasting/manifesting progression. But hey, take a Human Fighter (only an example, there are better choices from an optimization point of view) with Wild Talent and Able Learner, and he can enter War Mind and gain huge benefits from it.

 

[Rystil Arden]

But hey, take a Human Fighter (only an example, there are better choices from an optimization point of view) with Wild Talent and Able Learner, and he can enter War Mind and gain huge benefits from it.

Oh, it's a brilliant class for a Human Fighter (vis-a-vis Psywar)--totally agreed; I realised that years ago when I first got my XPH. But I think it makes a bit more sense to be a little friendlier to the Psywar entering the class since the fluff makes it seem a natural choice for Psywars, but it isn't (especially since this only helps at the lower levels of Warmind anyway--a Psywar10/Warmind10 at level 20 is going to be the same with either interpretation).