Warrior-Knight core class

[S'mon]

Thanks everyone for feedback. Here's a revised version. I'm determined to keep the 4 skill points/level and the virtual feats at 1-3, but I've nerfed Heals Well & Missile Defence; and made the bonus feats 1/3 levels from 4th, bringing wpn spc & GWS forward 1 level to 7th & 15th. Is this now too weak vs Fighter at higher levels?

Warrior-Knight Character Class

BAB: 1/1 Good Saves: Fort
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: Climb, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Swim, Diplomacy, Ride, Spot, and Knowledge (nobility & royalty).
Skill Points/Level: 4 + Int
Weapon & Armour Proficiency: all armour & shields, all simple & martial melee weapons. Knights do not receive proficiency in any missile weapons.
Starting Equipment: assigned by GM, usually chainmail or chain shirt, lance, any sword, any 1 of: mace, warhammer, military pick or morningstar; light warhorse; plus 2d6 gp cash. Mundane equipment like torches is usually freely available.

Code of Honour: all true Knights are constrained by their Chivalric Code to live and die with Honour. Those who violate their Code and do not atone may not advance further in the Knight class, and lose the Brave & Iron Willed class benefits.

Level/Abilities
1st - Heals Well (Ex): once after each battle in which he has been wounded, a Warrior-Knight who has 1 or more hp remaining and who receives within 1 hour a successful DC 15 heal check, taking 10 minutes, from himself or from another, can restore hp equal to [his own level + his CON bonus] (min 1 hp). This cannot restore more hp than were lost in that battle. Retries on failed rolls are allowed, but hp can be restored only once per battle.
1st - Brave (Ex): Knights save at +4 vs Fear effects. This is a morale bonus.
2nd - Missile defense (Ex): a Knight using a shield, and not flatfooted, gets a +2 AC cover bonus vs all missile attacks.
3rd - Iron Willed (Ex): a Knight gains +2 to Will saves. This stacks with the Iron Will feat.

A Knight who uses a missile weapon other than in extremis* or otherwise violates his Code always loses the benefits of the Brave & Iron Willed abilities for 1 week or longer, per DM's discretion.

*Knights are allowed to use missile weapons against varlets they absolutely _can't reach_ - say a flying Wizard - but use is discouraged as unmanly.

4th+: Fighter Bonus feats: a Knight of 4th level and higher gains bonus feats from the Fighter feat list at following levels: 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 17th, 20th). For the purpose of gaining Fighter-only Feats, a Warrior-Knight counts as a Fighter 3 levels below their Knight level, eg they are eligible for Weapon Specialisation at 7th level, for Greater Weapon Specialisation at 15th level, and for Epic Fighter feats at 24th level.

 

[robberbaron]

Agree with above posters: Why would anyone ever take Fighter?

Does remind me of the original Cavalier class - everything Fighter was and more with no down side (aside from no missile weapons).


OK, take Fighter only if you absolutely must have missile weapons.

Sorry, mate, but to my eyes it is still a lot of gain for not much pain.

 

[S'mon]

Agree with above posters: Why would anyone ever take Fighter?

Does remind me of the original Cavalier class - everything Fighter was and more with no down side (aside from no missile weapons).


OK, take Fighter only if you absolutely must have missile weapons.

Sorry, mate, but to my eyes it is still a lot of gain for not much pain.

Even the revised version with only 2/3 the Fighter feats?!
- In my thread on Randomlings I've been told it's now so weak (beyond level 3) no one would ever want it...

 

[S'mon]

My Randomlings thread is at:
http://www.randomlingshouse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3474&sid=a5f9e5022f2e273fd776f1006c4c5b26

 

[Khaalis]

Even the revised version with only 2/3 the Fighter feats?!
- In my thread on Randomlings I've been told it's now so weak (beyond level 3) no one would ever want it...

Actually from the looks of the class, it is... flawed.

In specific response - you dont have 2/3 the feats. You actually come out ahead. Why?
You get the same number of feats from 4th level and beyond, AND you can still take Fighter Only feats (at a level penalty).

However, a Fighter only gets 2 feats in the 1st three levels. This class gains basically double what a fighter does = 4 feats in the 1st three levels.
* Heals Well (increased heal ability)
* Brave (+4 bonus vs Fear)
* Missile defense (+4 AC cover bonus vs all missile attacks)
* Iron Willed (Iron Will feat that STACKS with normal Iron Will)

However, the real problem I see is this. Why take anything more than Levels 1-3 in this class?? The only Advantage a Level X Warrior-Knight has over a Level X Fighter is Skill Points and Skill List. Its not worth the trade.

In most cases the character is better off to go Levels 1-3 Warrior-Knight then Multiclass to Fighter. They gain a bigger boost to Fortitude (pickig up another +2; though they suffer a level lag to Reflex; Will is negated by Iron Willed). They gain more feats, remove the level penalty on Fighter Only feats, etc.

Currently this class is better off as a 3-5 level PrC IMHO. If you want it to be a base class it needs incentive to remain in the class through 20th level (or least for a longer haul than 3rd level). The class needs abilities that expand over level or that are not gained until further levels. Currently as it stands, it is suffering from the 3.0 Ranger syndrome.

Hope the comments help to explain why we think it needs work.

[Edit: PS: Another example of what I am saying is "Velmont's" comments in your 'Randomling's House' thread.]

 

[S'mon]

I've posted the current WK version to top of thread.

Khaalis - if you're right, that argues for keeping full 1/2 levels feat progression so it stays viable vs Fighter? And making the level 1-3 abilities weaker (but see current version).

***What do YOU think the level 1-3 abilities should be so that they make the class roughly equivalent to Fighter at levels 1-3, remembering the class has no missile weapons, a Code ban on missile weapons & dishonourable conduct, but benefits from improved skill points & skill list?***

 

[robberbaron]

Maybe move away from the Fighter bonus feat progression entirely.

Give them 1/3 levels, rather than 1/2 or give specialised feats at every other level (make it a specialised fighter)?

 

[Khaalis]

Personally if it were me? Hmm... Off the top of my head… some thoughts.

1) The missile weapon restriction is very minor. Most fighters lean toward melee types anyway.
2) The code of conduct is subjective and completely up to how strict the DM is. Placing RP restrictions on a class as a Mech balance doesn’t work, so we can totally discount that.

To balance this with a fighter but make them distinct I would follow the premises laid out in Complete Warrior with the Samurai and Swashbuckler. Keep the relatively same number of abilities and progression as the fighter, but keyhole the abilities into specific skills related to the class. You also need to make the abilities scale over time.

(Also if you want a true Cavalier style class I would enforce more Mounted Feats. This should be done by using 'Bonus Feat' but limiting the list to a more appropriate list than "All Fighter feats".)

Some Examples:

Heals Well (generic): You are experienced at treating battle wounds. You add the following healing skill ability at the listed level.
At level X: Treat Wound: (DC15) You heal the recipient 1d8 damage.
At level Y: Field Surgeon: (DC20) You heal the recipient 2d8 damage.
At level Z: Surgeon: (DC25) You heal the recipient 3d8 damage.

OR Heals Well (self only): You are a fast healer.

Heals Well I: Once per day, at 1st level, a warrior-knight can regenerate to heal wounds. Each day they can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to their warrior-knight level, at the rate of 1 hit point per minute.
Heals Well II: At level X, the warrior-knight can regenerate their wounds twice per day.
Heals Well III: At level Y, a warrior-knight can regenerate to heal wounds twice per day, but at a rate equal to their warrior-knight level x their Constitution modifier, but still at the rate of 1 hit point per minute.
Heals Well IV: At level Z, the warrior-knight can regenerate their wounds three times per day.
Etc.
(ie: something like 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th)

BRAVE: Break this up over 4 levels like other classes do (Brave +1, Brave +2, Brave +3, Brave +4) staggered over the 20 levels something like 2nd, 7th, 12th, and 17th).

Thus you would have something like this, following more of the template from CW.

1– Heals Well I
2– Brave +1
3– Iron Willed
4- -----
5- Bonus Feat
6- Heals Well II
7- Brave +2
8- Bonus Feat
9- -----
10- -----
11- Bonus Feat, Heals Well III
12- Brave +3
13- -----
14- Bonus Feat
15- -----
16- Heals Well IV
17- Bonus Feat, Brave +4
18- -----
19- -----
20- Bonus Feat

This gives Heal Well over 4 levels, Bravery Over 4 levels, Iron Willed, and 6 Bonus Feats that should come from a specified (and limited) list, possibly as follows, and I would REMOVE the Fighter only feats. The Fighter is weak enough as it is, it doesn’t need its thunder stolen.

Warrior-Knight Bonus Feat List: Alertness, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Diligent, Dodge, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Leadership (DMG), Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Ride-By Attack, Run, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Spirited Charge, Spring Attack, Toughness, Track, Trample, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus,
Whirlwind Attack

Just some thoughts. Take it with a grain of salt.

EDIT: These are just fast thoughts. Healing might be a bit powerful, but it gives you a starting place for what I mean by increasing power over levels. Bonus feats might even be better to be just Specified feats as mentioned by others.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I know this is pimping - but I'm going to do it anyway, whilst cringing:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88923

That's a link to my Citizen-class. It could be used to model a Warrior-Knight. At least you could compare S'mon's Warrior-Knight with it. Take a special look at Carwen Silversteel Czn12 example character, in the very first post.

"Warrior-Knight" - it does have a really cool ring to it!

 

[S'mon]

Citizen - interesting - like a tougher PC version of the aristocrat, for middle-class types. Hmm, maybe it should be called "Bourgeoisie"?

Things I don't want to do with the Warrior-Knight include forcing it into a cavalry role or demarcating an ability-progression across umpteen levels. I want it to be nearly as flexible as the Fighter, and more self-sufficient in terms of skills & healing.

IMO you can't just discount the Code restrictions since not being able to use a missile weapon certainly is a mechanical restriction with mechanical effects (loss of Knight abilities). BTW this "ignore roleplay restrictions" mantra has resulted in the Paladin being a very weak class, IMO.

I think I'm pretty close to finalising it. I'm looking at restoring the Feat progression to 1/2 levels, but starting at 5th level, and with the initial abilities (heals well, brave, missile defense, strong willed) stretched out over levels 1-4, in which a Fighter would get 3 feats.

Heals well does bump with level BTW, since you get back 1 hp/Class Level per use.