Warrior-Mage Prestige Classes: which are viable & which are not

[Felix]

Apparently they are. Why else are they whinging so much that, "oh my gosh!", they lose 2 whole caster levels?

If you are going to describe posters who cite the loss of two caster levels being a drawback as "whining", have the courtesy to make it clear whom you are talking about so that they may respond directly. Otherwise you may end up whitewashing everyone who doesn't agree with you and come off as either thoughtless or rude, or both.

So, may I ask if it was me who was whining about those two caster levels?

 

[charlesatan]

Welll, the bottom line for me is: A) once you start turning into hydras, you're not really playing a warrior-mage, you're a monster-mage, and B) I'd rather dwell on building stuff which I'm actually likely to get away with.

So what's not allowed aside from Polymorph? I assume throwing in Wraithstrike for good measure.

Well the link to the build I posted earlier doesn't use Polymorph (because the Polymorph rules require lots of modification to the character sheet).

From the PHB, low-level buffs are mirror image, invisibility, displacement, and if you're on a budget, greater magic weapon.

High-level you can do Quickened True Strike and some people (not me) might want to take Tenser's Transformation. I also like Fire Shield to actually discourage people from attacking me.

Other good low-level buffs from other books are Greater Mighty Wallop (increases the weapon damage of a bludgeoning weapon as if it was one size larger/4 levels), Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (1/2 caster level bonus to damage).

At higher levels I like Bite of the Werebear (+16 enhancement to Str, +8 Con).

Personally, I think the whole notion that a warrior-mage is all about self-buffing to be a little exaggerated. There are certainly advantages to being able to throw a plain old fireball that handily trump the wraithstriking hydra.

True but the problem with lobbing fireballs is that 1) BAB becomes redundant 2) the DCs of your spells aren't that high because of multiple attribute dependency (Str/Dex and Con), and 3) reduced caster level might not penetrate SR (if it has one) or deal as much damage. Usually if I do get combat spells, it's usually rays and touch attacks. Personally I like the Orb spells since they're ranged touch attacks and ignore SR.

For example I like the Spellsword's ability to channel spell. With a weapon of Spell Storing, that's you hitting your opponent and triggering two spells. Personally I like scorching ray. At caster level 11, that's 3 4d6 fire damae for each scorching ray. It could also be Vampiric Touch or Enervation (if you're evil/non-good). If I want to quickly incapacitate opponents I take Shivering Touch (Frostburn) which is a 3rd-level touch spell that deals 3d6 Dexterity damage but the duration is 1 round/level (no save, SR yes, cold subtype immune to it). Lesser Shivering Touch (1st-level spell) seems more balanced to me however (just 1d6 Dexterity damage).

There's also the Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsminess (as Enfeeblement except Dex).

Of course if the opponent is down to his last few hit points, I don't have any qualms with the warrior-mage hurling magic missile or a lightning bolt.

 

[Storyteller01]

Says who?

I'm looking for prestige classes that take the concept of the warrior-mage and makes it rock. My concept is that my character is the rockin'est warrior-mage who ever rocked. His name is Rocky Rocketblast, and he implores you to pitch in and help to make this laudible concept a reality.

Does that work for you?

Define rocks. What are other examples of fighter-mages in your campaign worlds history?

A fighter that comes with his own buffs can rock as a fighter. A Sorcerer with a few ranged based feats can rock as a sorcerer.

Jedi didn't throw fireballs (with any regularity). Gandalf TWF'd with a staff and sword, but still didn't compare to Legolos with ranged combat.

'Rocks' is defined by yourself and your campaign. So far (no insult intended here) that seems to be a character that can fight like a fighter AND cast the highest level spells. This isn't neccesary for a 'rocking' character. It all depends on what you want and what the DM throws at you. Numbers will only get you so far, and your DM will be adjusting the game to tp fit them at any rate.


So, what do you want your character to do thematically? Please be specific.

 

[I'm Cleo]

StGabe,

The whole disagreement comes down to different definitions of "balance". Yours (predictably -- since you have actual game-designing experience) is based on how well certain PrCs conform to what you consider a "clear design goal". Charlasatan and I (if I can speak for him a little here) use a more results-oriented definition of "balance". I.e., in the game itself, is the Eldritch Knight more powerful than the other classes? Does an Eldritch Knight outshine the other characters on the battle map? You conclude that the Eldritch Knight doesn't conform to an underlying structure you've found in D&D. Hey, I'll bet you're right -- you're the expert. But my answer would be, "So?" If you actually play with the class, does that deviation from the "clear design goal" actually translate into a dramatic difference in the game? I would say, "No." And you'd reply, "So? It's poorly designed!" And around and around we go because we're starting from fundamentally different positions.

I know this doesn't "resolve" the controversy, in terms of answering whether the Eldritch Knight is "balanced", but I think we can just say, "Okay, we're just looking at things differently, and continuing the argument on our original terms isn't going to get anywhere."

I'm Cleo!

 

[wildstarsreach]

Your 3rd/1st character RAW enjoys a -20% XP penalty.

Even if this is the case, at the plan that I have, it would only cost 800 xp as the level of fighter would be level 4 after 3 levels of ninja. Levels 5-9 are wizard which is a male drow preferred class hence no xp penalty.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Even if this is the case, at the plan that I have, it would only cost 800 xp as the level of fighter would be level 4 after 3 levels of ninja. Levels 5-9 are wizard which is a male drow preferred class hence no xp penalty.

You'd be right.... if that's how multiclass penalties worked. That penalty remains in effect until you make the ninja and fighter levels within 1 level of each other, which would be throughout those level 5-9 wizard levels (and beyond, if you still didn't even out the ninja/fighter levels).

 

[Dracomeander]

I keep seeing this discussion and others say how broken or overpowered certain classes and combos are. And I have to wonder if people are playing the same game I am.

I don't really care how broken something appears on paper, or whether the character my buddy has can do the job of more than one class effectively. I care that our group has the resources in character abilities to accomplish whatever job we have taken on.

I have personally seen characters with class combinations these boards have claimed to be brokenly powerful be the least useful characters in the party. It all has to do with the player group and DM you are working with.

If the characters and players are actually working together to make the game fun, there is no combination that is stupidly or excessively overpowered. It just takes a group to handle things with maturity and a sense of fair play all around.

With that said, I can even find a use for a class like the Abjurant Champion. Yes, it is a powerful five levels of class abilities but those levels don't start until 7th level. At that point, using the fastest multi-class of warrior and spellcaster he is a slightly weaker warrior who dabbles with 3rd level spellcasting. At 11th level, when he gets the final and arguably strongest ability, his effectiveness jumps dramatically when he goes from 6th level caster to 10th level caster. But his spells available are still just those of a 7th level caster.

Now at this point is where the choice is made as to whether to break the character or take him into the true theme of a warrior - wizard. Adding alternating levels of the original classes is a waste of the Champion abilities. Adding levels of Eldritch Knight is broken as it gives the character too much spell power combined with the increased caster level.

The true choice to make with a warrior - wizard at this point is to add a class with 1/2 level caster increase with full base attack like the Bladesinger or the Dragonslayer. That gives the character the ability to use a nearly full caster level to contribute to the party without giving the character the really high level spells the straight dedicated casters are throwing around.

Go ahead and disagree with me. I'm expecting it. But my opinion is that it is not the classes as presented that are broken. It is the intentions of the players that break the classes.

 

[Felix]

Even if this is the case, at the plan that I have, it would only cost 800 xp as the level of fighter would be level 4 after 3 levels of ninja. Levels 5-9 are wizard which is a male drow preferred class hence no xp penalty.

No additional XP penalty.

PHB, pg 11

FAVORED CLASS
Each race's favored class is also given on table 2-1: Racial Ability Adjustments. A character's favored class doesn't count against him or her when determining experience point penalties for multiclassing (see XP for Multiclass Characters, page 60).

So at level 3 you are Ninja 3.

You add a level of Fighter, taking you to Ninja 3/Fighter 1. This earns you a -20% XP penalty.

If Wizard were not your race's favored class, at fifth level you add a level of Wizard making you Ninja 3/Fighter 1/ Wizard 1. You would still only be penalized -20%, because only Ninja is two levels above your other classes. Add another level of Wizard: N3/F1/W2. Again, your Ninja and Fighter levels are 2 levels apart, and so you still have that penalty. You keep adding wizard levels until you reach: N3/F1/W5. At this point, all three of your classes are 2 levels apart, so your XP penalty increases to -40%.

However, Wizard is your race's favored class, so Wizard simply does not count towards multiclassing penalties. Since your character is a N/F/W, the easiest thing to do is to drop the wizard class from consideration and see what kind of penalties you may find: N3/F1. This combination of classes and levels merits you a -20% XP penalty until those classes are within one level of each other. This -20 XP penalty applies regardless of what your other classes may be, unless your other classes serve to increase the multiclassing penalty.

 

[takasi]

So if he goes Ninja 2/Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6 or Ninja 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 5 he won't have to worry about XP penalties at all, right? (Assuming he's a male drow with favored class wizard.)

 

[Felix]

So if he goes Ninja 2/Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6 or Ninja 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 5 he won't have to worry about XP penalties at all, right? (Assuming he's a male drow with favored class wizard.)

Yep.

Wizard does not count because it's the favored class.
Abjurant Champion and Eldrich Knight don't count because they're PrCs.

N2/F1/W6/AC5/EK6
N3/F2/W6/AC5/EK6

In either case, the only classes that count towards multiclassing penalties are within one level of each other.