D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Neonchameleon]

So make a new game to keep up. Why do we have to keep changing the same game's design priorities?

Because D&D wants to stay relevant. Brown Box D&D would go over like a lead balloon in 2023 and no one wants to bring back THAC0. Call of Cthulhu is as near a timeless an RPG as we have - but D&D really isn't.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes, but you can't really map modern representations of fantasy mages without being video game-y, because that's where the modern representations come from.

I'm going to ask for examples of what you think are "modern fantasy mages". People have mentioned a bunch who do not already and I could even continue the list

Gandalf, harry Dresden, Harry Potter, Eragon, Rojer halfgrip & everyone with power in those books, Kate Daniels, Rachel morgan, jade Godfrey, Atticus O'Sullivan, Alex Verus, and more i'm forgetting.

i can't think of any "modern fantasy mages" that look much like the ones from the gauntlet arcade game or d&d5e until there is a big stretch to include some of the self insert power fantasy isekai and gamelit one dimensional MCs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because it's new? That's like asking why I bought the Harry Potter books when I could have gone to the library and read Conan books for free. I bought a new thing because it was new and different.

Then as I said, make a new game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because D&D wants to stay relevant. Brown Box D&D would go over like a lead balloon in 2023 and no one wants to bring back THAC0. Call of Cthulhu is as near a timeless an RPG as we have - but D&D really isn't.

Not seeing an argument here against making a new game that isn't profit-based. If that's all this is, then why should I care?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Then as I said, make a new game.

As much as I'd like to see them slaughter all the sacred cows, there's simply too much value in brand recognition for that to be realistic.

 

[mamba]

Guess what level 5e breaks down at.

Guess what level BG3 stops at.

yes, if I make a homebrew version, it will stop at 12 too. Good enough for most adventure paths, and avoids a whole plethora of things having to be addressed in it

 

[Neonchameleon]

Not seeing an argument here against making a new game that isn't profit-based. If that's all this is, then why should I care?

Not seeing an argument here against a profit driven company updating their lead product to suit what is appropriate for the time.

If you want to play something other than the latest edition of D&D because you don't like where it went then you do you. I'm currently running my own 4e retroclone with one group and have just wrapped up Apocalypse World with another.

 

[mamba]

So make a new game to keep up. Why do we have to keep changing the same game's design priorities?

brand recognition

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Something to remember about Captain America, as a high-level martial, is that he's a lot more than just "peak human". A peak human is... peak at one thing, because there are tradeoffs, physiological compromises that must be made. He is not just as strong as Hafthor Bjornsson and as fast as Usain Bolt and as nimble as Mary Lou Renner-- he is all of these things simultaneously with the perception and instincts and split-second conscious decision-making capacity to use all of these capacities in conjunction.

He's not just a double-digit Fighter/Rogue/Monk with straight 24s. He'd demolish a D&D campaign and he's the Designated Mere Mortal in his franchise.

I really... don't want high-level Martials in D&D to be like Hulk and Thor. I want the archetypical high-level pure martial to be Captain America, with the choice of being Iron Fist or Psylocke instead being a real tradeoff.

He's also has

1) a built in class artifact that rarely gets taken away (shield)
2) a moral/emotional leader
3) brilliant tactician. both 2 and 3 have key value in many "adventures".
4) He also has plot points/narrative contrivance going for him which is a key aspect of balancing. (there happen to be a big gun enemy for the big gun and lesser enemies for captain america but it's critical he defeat them and pull the red lever and the big gun is occupied; only the moral choice will get them out of this mess and he convinces the reluctant others to go along, etc.).

And that's where there seems to be struggle in D&D if you try to keep Captain America as equal team mates with Dr. Strange.

D&D is resistant to model 1)-4) with any real power or at all.

 

[mamba]

The question of whether or not D&D should evolve with current trends is a gnarly one

I am ok with evolving, but evolving does not mean throwing all balance out the door because some books or movies do not have to worry about that

Incidentally, how does the Marvel TTRPG address that? Do they just ignore it?