D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

This seems to be seriously drifting from the "we shouldn't have attack cantrips just because kids like it and it makes Ha$bro money" topic.

I thought the topic was "ways to widen the martial caster gap, because kids like it and it makes Ha$bro money?" The holder of the IP you're a fan of making money off it being a good thing, because stuff for it keeps coming out, y'know...
 

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I thought the topic was "ways to widen the martial caster gap, because kids like it and it makes Ha$bro money?" The holder of the IP you're a fan of making money off it being a good thing, because stuff for it keeps coming out, y'know...
I know you've been on a relatively long hiatus, but to briefly summarize, my observation is that Micah generally believes that WotC/Hasbro has been a terrible steward of the D&D property (in terms of respect for tradition, not fiduciary) and would generally be relieved if they stopped publishing material all together, such that the community would move on from their dependence on official WotC material.
 

TBH, that's exactly what I'm complaining about. That's greater power/versatility, and less engaging/challenging, right there. Heck, even the old school convention that you could memorize the same spell two or more times was a bit generous. (necessary for the 14 WIS Cleric, if the party is to see 2nd level, but still...)

And, you still do the daily paperwork, in 5e. You're still a prepped caster, like in 3e (or even, technically 4e, it was just 'A or B' for each spell level for the Wizard, only), you just have the round-by-round versatility of a 3e prepped caster, on top of that.
Yeah, see I'm the guy they made the 3e sorcerer to punish for not liking spell prep.
 

I know you've been on a relatively long hiatus, but to briefly summarize, my observation is that Micah generally believes that WotC/Hasbro has been a terrible steward of the D&D property (in terms of respect for tradition, not fiduciary) and would generally be relieved if they stopped publishing material all together, such that the community would move on from their dependence on official WotC material.
I've noticed, I can't say I hold that opinion against him.
 

You seem to be confusing two issues. The Fighter lost Weapon Specialisation before they gained prestige classes, and with the major exception of Cleave (which is still present in the form of Great Weapon Mastery) the feats weren't all that hot. Twenty years ago fighters were at an all time low, encumbered by things like armour check penalties, by wands being cheaper and more common than magic swords, by feats being generally pretty awful, by iterative attacks coming out at below maximum BAB, and more. The 2e fighter could kick ass and take names - and had good saves and priority on the magic items table. The 3e fighter didn't.

The 2e fighter was simple - but at first level got +1 to hit, +2 to damage, and an extra attack every two rounds. Heavy weapons did more damage against large foes (which had far fewer hit points anyway). And had priority on the magic items table.

The 3.x fighter was a disaster. It lost weapon specialisation. It lost good saves at high levels. It lost priority on magic items because all its magic items were really expensive (when you can get three wands of CLW for the cost of a single +1 sword which do you pick?) It doesn't have anything like Second Wind or Action Surge. It couldn't actually make good use of the feats it had at low level if it wanted to prestige class as that would tie them up. Armour really got in the way. It moved from near top of the non-magical skills pile to the bottom.

Why would a 3.X spellcaster support a martial if they could have an aggressively hegmonizing ursine swarm (druid who turned into a bear, had a bear companion, and summoned bears) in the party and support that? And that was the problem with the "fighter as recipient of spells" - they soaked up party resources without providing any, while the ursine swarm provided some in return. It's not a model I want back.

What I want is a fighter who can (as in 2e and 4e) stand on their own two feet.
Eh? 3.X Fighters lost Weapon Specialization? What's this then?

You might say that's not a great Feat, but we don't even have this as an option in 5e unless you exclusively use a one handed weapon. Let alone the ability to upgrade it with Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization later.

And yes, I didn't say the 3.X Fighter was good. I said it had several things that the 5e Fighter lacks. As to why a 3.X caster would support a Fighter, that's because it's more efficient.

I mean seriously, for all the talk about "CoDzilla", it takes a lot of action economy to layer buffs on yourself to become all powerful. Many buffs that could be put on the Fighter who could immediately use them! That there were good self-buffs at the time certainly helped cause the problem (and the misuse of Divine Metamagic), but the last 3.5 character I played was a Cleric who used DMM+Persist...to lay down buffs for the entire team. This left me basically using Reserve Feats for the rest of the day, but we were far more effective as a group than a single CoDzilla could be, and there was no need for any prep time.

But hey, I don't feel the need to argue that point- and I won't, since it's not relevant to the greater point I'm making here. Fighters have less than they once did. Most of what Wizards got was Quality of Life choices, and their ability to actually help support other party members effectively. Which isn't a nerf to them, but to everyone else!

The Fighter got a lot less in the transition. There is no longer any real dedicated design space to making them the master of a weapon. Everyone can use the same weapons the Fighter does (and if they can't, getting the ability is trivial). The same for armor. Everyone attacks the same as the Fighter.

The Fighter gets 2 bonus ASI's, has a lot less Feats to work with (if he or she even has Feats to work with), a badly scaling self heal, an extra attack routine (which again, is really just a patch for not being able to get Haste), and a laughable reroll of a failed save as a high level feature. Sure, you get 2 more attacks, starting at level 11, and that's not nothing, but it's not something they gained. For everything Fighters gained in 5e, they lost something, even if that thing wasn't strictly bolted onto their class chassis.

But what about Weapon Masteries? Big deal, that's not a Fighter buff. That's a buff for anyone who happens to be a weapon using class.

In conclusion, caster's didn't really gain very much of note, if you really get down to it. But they gained more than they lost, and you can't say the same for all the non-magic classes.
 

And increasingly nostalgia for things the vast majority of the fan base has never encountered. From Appendix N...Lord of the Rings, Cthulhu, and maybe Conan the Barbarian are touchstones for younger gamers. If they remember Conan at all, it's likely from the bad Jason Momoa movie more than the Arnie movie or the original Howard stories. The rest are effectively forgotten or nonexistent to younger gamers. Their touchstones will be things like Harry Potter, Harry Dresden, anime, manga, light novels, video games, etc.
And a ton of YA that no one older than 30 has ever heard of unless they have a kid who is into it, yeah.

I’d actually love to theorize a D&D that has Dresden, The Witcher, Elder Scrolls, Abhorsen (I was surprised to hear from a school librarian recently that a lot of tweens are discovering the Abhorsen books and loving them),
I've noticed, I can't say I hold that opinion against him.
most of us don’t, even tho we disagree.

The frequency and vociferous nature of the expression of an opinion can sour people, of course.
 


I've noticed, I can't say I hold that opinion against him.
It's totally fair. I differ in that I prize novelty and generally see little value in maintaining tradition, but it's a perfectly fair assumption given those priors. I also prefer 3pp products to WotC material, although for very different aesthetic reasons.
 

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'plus thread' and I'm 20 pages late but anyway, for me a big problem is that the Fighter isn't actually very good at fighting, both offensively and defensively, and you have to use Action Surge for combat instead of one of its many non-combat uses. Fighters also pall in comparison to Paladins (thanks to additional Radiant damage) & Rangers (thanks to persistent Hunters' Mark & other effects) in Tier 3 in general combat.

Fixes:

1st level - Defensive Bonus: Your base Armour Class can become 10 + Armour + Defensive Bonus. Your Defensive Bonus is the lower of your Proficiency Bonus and your levels in the Fighter class and is limited by armour as your Dex bonus is (e.g. max of +2 with Medium Armour). You may add to your AC with a shield, Fighting Styles, magic, and the like. Your Defensive Bonus may not be used with Unarmoured Defence.

2nd level - Action Surge - Fighters get non-Attack Action Surges equal to the lower of their levels in the Fighter class and their Proficiency Bonus to take Actions that cannot be used for attacks (q.v. Rogue's Cunning Action). Fighters also get Action Surges that can be used for attacks at 2nd and 13th levels.

4th level - Indomitable gets brought forward to 4th level and becomes an auto-save, like Legendary Resistance except it also works on no-save situations. You get additional uses at 9th and 17th levels.

5th level - Consistent Attack: when you take an action other than the Attack or Cast a Spell action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to make one weapon attack.

6th level, - Instead of the feat, Fighters get either an additional Reaction or an additional Bonus Action (their choice) per round. At 14th level, again instead of the feat, Fighters get both.

8th level - Combat Readiness: you may use the lower of your levels in the Fighter class and your Proficiency Bonus instead of any other stat bonus when calculating initiative. Feats are cumulative with this. (Note that this solves the TWF problem.)

12th level - Sixth Sense: at 12th level your base passive Wisdom (Perception) scores become the better of 10 + Proficiency Bonus or 10 + Wisdom modifier and you may use your Proficiency Bonus instead of your Wisdom modifier when making active Wisdom (Perception) rolls.
I agree with the sentiment that martials (especially melee ones) are generally not deadly or survivable enough at high levels, particularly against multiple creatures.

It's happened in several of the martial vs. caster threads where someone attempts to "demonstrate" the "potence" of the fighter
against an "army". They kit the fighter out and say..

Look how many mooks the fighter can kill..
...If they have a bunch of rare magical gear..
...if they can reach the mooks on their turn every turn..
...if all mooks are level1 or less..
...if their feats are most specifically relevant against low-level mooks (e.g.heavy armor master)
...if there aren't more than about 50-200 of the mooks..
And..
...If 90% or more of the mooks don't even try to attack until the fighter can get in range.

It's been a bummer each time it's happened to realize that a legendary hero within the setting can be taken out reliably by an auditorium of kids fresh out of fighting school.

Any set of buffs that would result in a high level fighter individually representing a credible threat against a horde of mooks would be a great place to start IMO.

Whether that's more attacks, more damaging attacks, some kind of intimidating aura, etc., I think any could reasonably apply.
 

I've lost who to make this a reply to, but anyway...

I think D&D's biggest source of inspiration now is the preceding nearly 50-years of (checks notes) the world's greatest roleplaying game.
Yeah, prettymuch. And, even if, like you're all oh, Dresden or this or that vidya game or whatever should influence D&D... well, D&D influenced them first! Ha.

I mean, D&D has not been much influenced by more recent genre developments - and, indeed, has probably influenced them a bit - and it certainly doesn't model them to any degree... but it never modeled Apendix N that well, either.
D&D models the fantasy sub-genre defined by D&D.
 

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