D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Lanefan]

I mean, fighters aren't allowed to taunt. What more are we going to take from them to limit their extremely linear growth?

Taunt is a good idea - try to get your foes so mad they go berserk and throw caution, and defense, to the wind. I like it.

That said, for consistency it has to be available to the foes as well; and players would cry bloody blue murder the second such an ability got used against their PCs.

 

[Lanefan]

Then I think we're having separate conversations. There's a question regarding whether the overall power of the game needs to be toned down.."because its not the MCU".

Despite the fact that a lot of MCU scenarios and antagonists, and the heroes' responses to them are very much in line with a lot of traditional D&D gameplay.

In the same way that driving a F1 Ferrari is in line with driving a Toyota, yes: so far over the top as to be the same in name only.

And then we tailor accordingly. If we think the MCU is a good exemplar for the gameplay we want, then we should be considering MCU superheroes as the appropriate exemplars when designing class abilities.

If not, then let's actually state what we're trying to model and why and then actually try to get there,

Game of Thrones. How's that for a model, at least in terms of capstone power levels?

 

[Lanefan]

Well, yes. If you don't want player characters to be powerful, you shouldn't play them at high levels.

The question rests on one's definition of powerful.

In my view a demigod character left 'powerful' behind ages ago.

The way I see it, characters at capstone level should be powerful but still by no means be the biggest fish in the pond. It would take a completely different game or system to be able to play them much beyond that and have them eventually become the biggest fish, because I don't think barely-better-than-peasant characters and demigod characters (or the higher-end supers e.g. Dr Strange, Superman, etc.) can really be properly supported within the same system.

 

[Lanefan]

1E fighters were more powerful than 1E Magic-Users, even at high level. Magic-Users were gimped at every turn. To start with they needed a minimum Intelligence to even have higher level spells in their book and this was in an era of rolling abilities and not rolling and then deciding where to put the number. Then their 4 spells at 1st level were random and they only added 1 per level up to a predetermined number of maximum spells. Every time they found a scroll or added a spell they needed to roll a check to see if they even could learn that spell. So while there were powerful spells like fireball, there was no guarantee you would get them and you might instead end up with feign death.

You could retry a failed spell each time you bumped, assuming you had access to it, so failing to learn a spell wasn't the end of the world.

Comparing a 18th level 1E Fighter and Magic User 1V1:

Because of the wired rules on casting spells and initiative, if a magic-user is casting a spell and gets attacked, the attack occurs at the time he starts casting the spell if he wins initiative and if it hits then it disrupts the spell. The only way this is mitigated is if they are not within melee range and it would take longer in movement for the opponent to close and attack (assuming they are not attacking the magic-user with a missile weapon). So even if he wins initiative he is still screwed.

Which is why the caster needed to cast from cover, or have some hired meat shields (or summoned monsters) in the way to stop attackers, or be in the air.

In some corner cases could cast something like Power Word Kill that got no save he could beat an 18th level fighter, but other than that he was done for. For example he needs an 18 intelligence (very unlikely in 1E) to even be able to cast 9th level spells, he needs to roll low enough to be able to learn Power Word Kill, he needs to win initiative, he needs to not have his spell broken before complete. If he did all that he could take the fighter down in the first round.

If you're talking strictly one-v-one yes, the mage gets one spell and probably doesn't get a second...unless the first one is Improved Invisibility, in which case the Fighter's probably hosed.

On the other hand the magic user had an extremely bad AC and really low hps (about 35 at 18th level). After weapon specialization came along an optimized fighter would be getting 3.5 attacks a round at 18th level, needs a 2 to hit and if had an 18 strength (to match the MUs 18), he would be doing about 10 hp damage per hit.

By the sort of level you're talking a MU would probably have a pretty good AC; as by then she'd have acquired Bracers AC 2, a good Ring of Protection, and maybe some other defensive gear (Cloak of Displacement/Robe of Blending, Boots of Speed, etc.); never mind whatever Dex bonus she can chuck in. Mages with base AC in the -3 to -7 range plus being hard to hit due to displacement etc. aren't that hard to achieve.

But they didn't have much starch, that's for sure.

 

[Aldarc]

I don't think I really agree with this, even classic competitive games like Clue and Monopoly are not balanced between all players.

I think this is even less important with a cooperative game like D&D.

Not all games are perfectly balanced. People who play these games competitively or organize such tournaments are often aware of this. Many imbalanced competitive games accomodate for this by being played across a series of games or rounds in their tournaments: e.g., chess, backgammon, poker, etc. But just because these games are not balanced doesn't mean that people don't try to make them more balanced such that skilled players will have a higher chance at winning even when imbalance or luck is involved in the game.

Although D&D is a cooperative game, so are many MMORPGs. However, balance is still important there too. There are also cooperative boardgames. Balance can be important in such games that have roles or classes. I talk about such experiences briefly here.

 

[Tonguez]

Lets look at Dr Strange (MCU)

wow duplication spell misfire!

 

[Tonguez]

Lets look at Dr Strange (MCU)

ARTIFACTS
Strange uses at least 3 Artifacts
1 Cloak of Levitation (Sentient Artifact) - chooses to grant a wearer flight, can grapple and provide hugs
2 Eye of Agamotto (Anicient Relic) - used for scrying and time manipulation.
3 Sling Ring (Mass produced)- Intiates of Kamar-Taj are given Sling rings which allows them to open portals in space and to other dimensions. *Scocerers can Conjure energy from other dimensions and summon ‘aid’ from powerful beings.

RITUAL SPELLS
the Runes of Kof-Kol ‘Spidermans Forgetting spell’ (almost tore a rift in reality)

SPELLS
the majority of Dr Stranges Spells are Conjuration spells that can be directly linked to the Portals, students of the Kamar-Taj can open via use of Sling Ring (artifact) which all initiates receive.
Astral Projection might also be a form of Conjuration, it was the first magic Strange was exposed too. Notably Dr Strange mastered Astral Projection very quickly and used his Astral form to steal the Eye of Agamotto and study the forbidden Book of Cagliostro while his body slept. His mastery of his Astral projection may also be why he is able to enter and manipulate the Mirror Dimension with ease.

Strange also seems to have mastered a number of Named Spells from the Book of Cagliostro that channel the power of eldritch entities, Strange is exceptional both for his recall (photographic memory) and imaginative use of magic when invoking the entities and using there powers.

Beyong his Conjuration and Portal spells, Strange has a couple of minor tricks including telekinesis, disguise self, some protective Wards and Barriers anc a locator spell. After reading the Darkhold he learnt Dreamwalking and Manipulation of Souls.

CONJURATION/EVOCATION

1. Portals The manipulation of Portals can all be linked to the Sling Rings which allow Scorcerers to travel across space and dimensions or to reach through and grab objects or channel arcane energy* The range of portals appears infinite.
2. Astral projection (self) - Strange and the Ancient one can use astral projection on themselves and
3. Astral Shove (Attack) on others
4. Tao Mandala - the Tao Mandala seem to be the primary manifestation of magic energy pulled through a portal. The Mandala can be used as Shields or for offensive strikes
5. Mandala can be used as platforms to walk on (floating disc)
6. Thrown Mandala (?) - a form of Tao Mandala that can be thrown and used to cut (tentacles and a bus?)
7. Shield of Seraphim (Force Wall) - essentially a larger form of the Mandala
   
   Conjured Weapons (named Invocations)
8. Eldritch Whip (Force Lariat)
9. Bolts of Bathakk (Lightning bolt)
10. Crimson Bands of Cyttorak (Entangling Bands)
11. Icy Tentacles of Ithkalon (Area effect causing multiple grappling force blasts to burst from the ground to slam enemies into the ground)
12. Images of Ikonn (Duplication Spell)
13. Winds of Watoom (Wind Wall?)
14. Conjured physical musical notes to throw at enemy
    
    Minor Conjuration
15. conjured fire in his fireplace
16. conjured an umbrella stand for Thor
17. replaced Thors teacup into a self filling Beer Mug\
    
    OTHER SPELLS
18. Used a peice of Thors hair for a locator spell
19. puts a basic prote tive ward on the Eye of Agamotto (it burnt Ebony Maws hand)
20. did a quick change of clothes (disguise self?)
21. Mind controlled a street vendor to punch himself
22. Used telekinesis to bury his deceased alternate form beneath bricks
    
    DARKHOLD MAGIC (Artifact)
23. Dreamwalked the corpse of one of his own alternates
24. bound the Souls of the Damned to make wings
25. *What If alternate used Darkhold magic to consume summoned souls and thus become more powerful

 

[Gammadoodler]

In the same way that driving a F1 Ferrari is in line with driving a Toyota, yes: so far over the top as to be the same in name only.

Game of Thrones. How's that for a model, at least in terms of capstone power levels?

It's at least a goal to drive at.

Why do you think it's a good one?

And who would be the spellcasting exemplars from that setting?

 

[M_Natas]

It's one thing to say that they are getting away from old and forgotten things while attaching to newer things.... but if the sun total of those newer things is the gauntlet arcade game with no other capable of being named it rings more than a little hollow. There was a post earlier in the thread talking about how Harry Potter doesn't fit 5e cantrips either. It this "modern sources of media" is a thing d&dis linking to why aren't we calling it video games if those are the only ones that can be named?

I would say Harry Potter's use of Spells is very cantrip like. They can fire the basic ones at will without any repurcussions.

But the rules of the Harry Potter magic are quite simple:

• Magic can do what is introduced in the books early as spells (and other magical effects).
• Only magic introduced before can be used to solve problems later in the books.
• magical misshaps can happen (when you use a broken wand or try advanced magic like polyjuice position or apparation or don't use the right want movements and incantations)
• emotions and willpower power magic (so HP Wizards are more charisma casters)

So, what compares in D&D to that?

1. What magic can do: it is the same. Magic is what spells can do. There is no real explanation, why and how magic works, it just works. The spells work as advertised, but you generally can't figure out a system of what and why certain spells exist and you can't guess by looking at existing spells, if certain spells exist you don't know abkut or can change spells. Spells that are known are known and nothing else is known about magic (simplified). Harry Potter doesn't change magic and till the inception of the Order of the Scribe Wizard in 5e, changing spells was not normal (some Sorcerers can do that, but that's all).
2. Cantrips. The easy Harry Potter spells are all at will powers, like the cantrips. Lumos is the light spell ...
3. HP Wizards are in general Charisma Casters.

What doesn't compare?
Mishaps.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Can we define high level mundane characters? I always thought you stop being mundane once you hit high levels?

Right. When I think of top tier mundane, I think characters like Conan, Batman, Black Widow and James Bond. And I really don't see these as being more than around level ten, if that.