D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[TwoSix]

Given how WoW is these days, functionally a properly played spellcaster is effectively on this. Mana loss only comes up on ones who don't have it as their role needing to grab heals when doing a non-healing role. Used to be more of an issue but not nowerdays

Agreed. For Mage-type characters in most MMOs (like WoW), MOBAs (like LoL), and ARPGs (like Diablo), using a spell as your bread-and-butter attack is the norm.

 

[M_Natas]

Beginning of Thor: Ragnarok

Opening..

"Oh no..Thor's in a cage" (underground with another skeletal prisoner..wait...is this a Dungeon(tm)?)

Is confronted by a giant..wisecracks a bit with said giant..before breaking out of chains. Fights a bunch of mooks..and then what's that??

A Dragon(tm)!!

He runs away for a bit but is caught, and is forced to slay the beast with his magic hammer

..And this isn't the gameplay we want out of the Dungeons & Dragons RPG?

Edit: the more times I compare the Thor movies to D&D, the more I think MCU Asgard should be the model folks should use when designing a D&D setting. It even featured evil elves in it.

But Thor is more a Wizard or maybe a Paladin and not a Fighter.
And what I figured was, that some people want to have mundane non magical fighters that can beat dragons and kill 100s of mooks.

 

[M_Natas]

I mean he can also one shot a skyscraper and tank a neutron star, and those sound a tad above what I'd expect in D&D, but yeah, chain breaking and dragon fighting are obviously fine.

The Power Levels in the MCU vary widely even in one and the same film. In one scene Captain America is fighting some goons, Human Hydra agents, and in the next he is holding a 1000 ton hellicarrier with his arms.

 

[M_Natas]

Maybe look at genres that have martial and spellcaster protagonists as peers?

I really can't think of one (don't read a lot of Mangas, so maybe there are more) but even in the superhero genre or most fantasy novels I read, martials only are equal to spellcasters, when they get magical or supernatural powers, be it from gamma radiation, serum, magical artifacts or magic of their own.

The Witcher? A mutant who uses magic.
Harry Dresden? The martials either get super natural powers or are outclassed and die.
Cap. America? Supernatural drugs.
Hulk? Gamma Radiation.
Thor? God.

Like, outside of One Punch Men, which is a parody, right?/Manga there is no mere non magical human who can compete with supernatural people.

 

[M_Natas]

Do they fit Vancian memorization?

I mean, most depictions of magical power in fantasy are not systematic, at all. They're whatever the author or director or special F/X studio thought would be good for the themes being explored, or for the story arc or the scene...

We are lucky when TV Shows use the minimum requirement for any magic system:
Magic that is used to resolve a (main) conflict, needs to be established earlier in the story.

 

[mamba]

When I think of top tier mundane, I think characters like Conan, Batman, Black Widow and James Bond. And I really don't see these as being more than around level ten, if that.

I guess that is the difference, you see them as level 10, I see them as the end goal and where magic stops for balance as well

I do not want a Hulk or Dr Strange in the universe (as a PC)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I guess that is the difference, you see them as level 10, I see them as the end goal and where magic stops for balance as well

But this really doesn't make sense considering the sort of foes that the top tier characters face.

I do not want a Hulk or Dr Strange in the universe (as a PC)

But wizard already is Doctor Strange, that's the problem. Also, you probably don't need Hulk, if you nerf the casters a bit we can settle for Captain America.

 

[M_Natas]

I guess that is the difference, you see them as level 10, I see them as the end goal and where magic stops for balance as well

I do not want a Hulk or Dr Strange in the universe (as a PC)

But even those characters vary vastly in power. James Bond is maybe, with good will a level 2 rogue. Batman is a level 10 one. Black Widow, depending on the source a Level 6 assassin and Conan? In some Short Stories I read he is a level 1 or 2 thief. The Schwarzenegger Conan is maybe a level 3 Barbarian.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah the thing with some modern fantasy is, the magic folk do insane powerful nonsense, but the weapon users become so good they can dodge spells that aren’t supposed to dodgeable, and break spells with a powerful or well placed strike, move so fast it might as well be a teleport.

It’s got to be able to cut through stone, shake the ground, hit in an arc with a single attack, dance around a large group and half of them just fall over (just an AoE effect that deals big damage and save vs death under XYZ CR?), deflect magic with weapons, and other wild stuff

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Taunt is a good idea - try to get your foes so mad they go berserk and throw caution, and defense, to the wind. I like it.

That said, for consistency it has to be available to the foes as well; and players would cry bloody blue murder the second such an ability got used against their PCs.

Consistency is not required.