D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[mamba]

By the rules as written you totally can...

no, you can multiclass into Sorceror, the descended from dragons you either already had, or do not gain that way

 

[Tony Vargas]

I doubt you can multiclass into being descended from dragons…

in 3.5 Sorerers' 'blood of dragons' (or some other supernatural creature, I played one with Efreeti blood once) was official, and you could still MC into it, you just discovered a previously unknown heritage

5e is a bit more vague source of your sorcerers' powers, IIRC>

In any case, I am for closing the gap by nerfing casters, not by everyone turning superhuman

That is a fine choice.

level 21 sounds like another way of saying ‘not in 5e’.
If you want a supplement for levels 21-30, knock yourself out, I will ignore it

5e has a lot less going on than a lot of prior editions, yes. 3.5, 4e, BECMI and 1e AD&D could all exceed 20th level (1e, some classes couldn't, and the experience requirement doesn't seem tenable, but technically).

 

[Micah Sweet]

I do believe this grounding is true. Although it doesn't have to have humans if other things -- emotions, gravity, hot/cold, etc. work similarly. Think Left Hand of Darkness.

But and this is a big but, that really doesn't have to extend to PCs.

Most of the world can be regular humans. But PC humans are also Wizards, etc. There is nothing stopping the magic world rationale talked about in some of these threads form existing and given these particular humans (dwarfs , etc) the permissions to have the ability to manifest fantastical abilities outside the baseline.

"The world is a magical place. Some sentient races manifest powers beyond normal members of their race and no one ones why. Often these abilities manifest later in life."

or

"The sentient races are all descended from the First People. Modern people are pale imitations of the first Peoples, who were more like Gods walking the planet. Some people have the blood of the First People flowing stronger in their veins and manifest powers beyond normal members of their race. Often these abilities manifest later in life."

Done. Normal humans (dwarfs, etc) exist and the ability to become a Mystic Martial or not also exists.

Now, I get the normal human does great things fantasy too, so I think there should be a peak human option that gets things like mandatory magic items at high level to allow for that archetype.

Also there should be an option at lower level to not manifest the supernatural stuff so you can be fairly mundane 1-7 or 1-10 then add the Mythic stuff later.

Would be interested to see any of that in the actual book. Show me the passage, then we'll talk.

 

[Lanefan]

Here's an example.

In a recent game I DMed, a major NPC that both fought and later allied with the PCs was a drow who was a savant with teleportation magic. The NPC was 15th level equivalent (had 15 Hit Dice) and had these abilities:

Magic missile, cast at 3rd level, at-will
Armor of agathys, cast at 4th level, swapped to force damage instead of cold, 1/SR
Arcane gate at will
Create permanent teleport circle with 1 full day of work and 1000gp in rare, specialized reagents

Definitely one of the best NPCs I've played, and the players both hated and loved him. But, I feel like there's several people on this thread who would tell me I'm playing incorrectly by running a humanoid NPC that has abilities that are completely out of the bounds of a "normal" PC build.

First off, if Drow aren't PC-playable in your game then you're completely off the hook.

But if they are, the way I'd handle this would be that the Drow used to be a much higher-level mage (i.e. was 15th level, once) but mostly gave it up and let those skills decay, other than the very few spells and rituals thought to be important and worth saving.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If you actually expect your desires to be implemented by WotC you are completely, and totally, off the reservation.

The best you can possibly hope for is your DM implementing house rules.

Seriously and unironically, if this thread is not about brainstorming house rules, then it is a complete and total waste of time for everyone except people who enjoy arguing.

I feel like I've been saying this for years.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Good for them. So they shouldn’t be playing D&D as humans in D&D, especially PCs, are wildly beyond human capabilities by default.

That's funny, I haven't read that anywhere...

 

[mamba]

in 3.5 Sorerers' 'blood of dragons' (or some other supernatural creature, I played one with Efreeti blood once) was official, and you could still MC into it, you just discovered a previously unknown heritage

discovering something you were unaware of is not the same as acquiring something new.

As I said, you can multiclass into Sorcerer, you either already were descended from dragons beforehand, or still aren’t afterwards

That is a fine choice.

I think so too

5e has a lot less going on than a lot of prior editions, yes. 3.5, 4e, BECMI and 1e AD&D could all exceed 20th level (1e, some classes couldn't, and the experience requirement doesn't seem tenable, but technically).

I know, there are also some supplements for 5e for epic levels (not by WotC), it just isn’t something I am interested in - or at most to buff the neglected martials for levels 11-20 (haven’t looked at those supplements, so cannot say whether they could work for that)

 

[Lanefan]

Well, that's probably the distinction then. Everyone in my setting, PC and NPC alike, is a special unique snowflake.

The idea that every adventuring humanoid has to use some minor variation of exactly 12(13) power sets is something I've found horrendously off-putting even going back to when I started playing back in the 2e days.

That's fair. I've occasionally had similar thoughts, however...

Even as a teenager, I gravitated towards systems like the "custom class builder" in the 2e DMG, and I loved the flexibility in Skills and Powers.

...my concern with such systems (and with too-open multi-classing) is that they're often far too amenable to the making of jack-of-all-trades characters who don't need to rely on anyone else, thus destroying the idea of the diverse group who each have their clear strengths (i.e. niches) and weaknesses and who become a party by looking to each other for support.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

discovering something you were unaware of is not the same as acquiring something new.

As I said, you can multiclass into Sorcerer, you either already were descended from dragons beforehand, or still aren’t afterwards

Yes, we must assume that in the world the chracter always was descended from the dragons. But the player can make the decision that it "always was so" years after the chracter creation when they multiclass. The exact same thing than with 4e's demigod epic destiny.

I'm not sure I like this, but that's how it works.

 

[TwoSix]

...my concern with such systems (and with too-open multi-classing) is that they're often far too amenable to the making of jack-of-all-trades characters who don't need to rely on anyone else, thus destroying the idea of the diverse group who each have their clear strengths (i.e. niches) and weaknesses and who become a party by looking to each other for support.

Fair points.

I worry about this less because:

1) In 5e, it's difficult to function as a solo character, and pretty much everyone benefits from having more characters around to act as extra Concentration slots.
2) My games are typically short (between 10-25 sessions), and focused on a specific arc.
3) I require player buy-in to the premise before I'll even consider DMing. Don't play a concept that expects to need a lot of solo time; I'm not running 2 separate games for more than a short period of time.