D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Micah Sweet]

And that's totally fine, no issues. But having those preferences, AND also valuing consistency and verisimilitude, are not linked in any way and have no dependency on each other.

Fair enough, I guess. But I want both, and the D&D I play is focused on accomplishing both.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The beauty of it is that a Monk, Rogue or Ranger with the Evasion ability can actually just stand next to a barrel of dynamite and dodge the whole explosion without cover or moving.

Yeah, and for me that's a bad rule.

 

[mamba]

My play style has evolved to be more fiction focused precisely because I think orienting the game around extrapolation of the setting from the rules constructs is damaging to both consistency and verisimilitude.

given that you said you are more fiction focused, that sounds like you ignore the rules for the setting rather than adjusting the setting / fiction to the rules. Is that correct?

 

[TwoSix]

given that you said you are more fiction focused, that sounds like you ignore the rules for the setting rather than adjusting the setting / fiction to the rules. Is that correct?

For D&D and other similar games, I will generally lean that way, yes. With the caveat that once the rule is invoked, I generally let it ride unless the resulting narration is completely untenable.

If you cast a fireball underwater, for example, I'm inclined to let it work (there are plenty of valid narrations that will allow it work), unless there's a broad agreement at the table that it shouldn't work. But if it didn't work once, it won't work again.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I guess that is what I'm saying yes. I apologize for misspeaking.

Fair enough. While I disagree with it, it's not that surprising.

It does seem somewhat disingenuous, though, to invite folks to provide examples of non-supernatural folks doing supernatural things in stories, since you're operating under a paradigm where you can determine that something/someone is supernatural independent of what the story or context say about it.

I say... well John Henry out raced a steam-powered rock drilling machine.

You say.. I consider John Henry to be supernatural.

And you can do that for literally any example.

It's a rigged game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I already answered that question. Either go back to the TSR paradigm where casters had real restrictions and fighters were actually best at combat, or use better martial classes.

It wasn't a question.
And, while closing the gap by just improving martial classes should be on the table, if, for whatever reason, there's an insistence that martial classes be limited to a fictional reality that's as or more limiting than actual reality, then it's not an option.
Similarly, while adding extremely onerous restrictions on extremely overpowered spellcasting, is theoretically imposing some sort of balance - alternating between casters being worthless dead weight and all-important stars of the show, the more likely result is that canceling out those restrictions increasingly becomes the focus of play.

Spoiler: back in the day...

The TSR paradigm of balance was ultimately theoretical balance among whole imaginary populations of races and classes, that a Paladin might put fighters to shame is OK, because a hundred times as many imaginary people can become fighters, that a magic-user at high level vastly overpowered fighters is OK, even tho it's just as easy to qualify to become a magic-user as a fighter, because many more 1st level magic-users are killed by house cats than are 1st level fighters. It's a balance paradigm that does not balance the actual play experience. Sure, 3e and 5e are even less balanced, that way, than TSR - FWIW, that's true.

So, yeah, since there's a preference to keep martial characters low-powered in conformance with real reality, while casters be limited by fictional reality, since fictional reality is arbitrary, it can be dictated to put casters on the same level of effectiveness as martials.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The beauty of it is that a Monk, Rogue or Ranger with the Evasion ability can actually just stand next to a barrel of dynamite and dodge the whole explosion without cover or moving.

In fairness, that isn't what thr Evasion ability describes. It says that the character 'nimbly dodges' out of the way. It just doesn't specify any particular physics or mechanics for how this works.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Fair enough. While I disagree with it, it's not that surprising.

It does seem somewhat disingenuous, though, to invite folks to provide examples of non-supernatural folks doing supernatural things in stories, since you're operating under a paradigm where you can determine that something/someone is supernatural independent of what the story or context say about it.

I say... well John Henry out raced a steam-powered rock drilling machine.

You say.. I consider John Henry to be supernatural.

And you can do that for literally any example.

It's a rigged game.

Several people have offered real life examples refuting what I'm saying, and I've accepted those.

But, for example, are you saying that the stunts traditionally associated with wuxia are completely bereft of supernatural aspects?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It wasn't a question.
And, while closing the gap by just improving martial classes should be on the table, if, for whatever reason, there's an insistence that martial classes be limited to a fictional reality that's as or more limiting than actual reality, then it's not an option.
Similarly, while adding extremely onerous restrictions on extremely overpowered spellcasting, is theoretically imposing some sort of balance - alternating between casters being worthless dead weight and all-important stars of the show, the more likely result is that canceling out those restrictions increasingly becomes the focus of play.

Spoiler: back in the day...

The TSR paradigm of balance was ultimately theoretical balance among whole imaginary populations of races and classes, that a Paladin might put fighters to shame is OK, because a hundred times as many imaginary people can become fighters, that a magic-user at high level vastly overpowered fighters is OK, even tho it's just as easy to qualify to become a magic-user as a fighter, because many more 1st level magic-users are killed by house cats than are 1st level fighters. It's a balance paradigm that does not balance the actual play experience. Sure, 3e and 5e are even less balanced, that way, than TSR - FWIW, that's true.

So, yeah, since there's a preference to keep martial characters low-powered in conformance with real reality, while casters be limited by fictional reality, since fictional reality is arbitrary, it can be dictated to put casters on the same level of effectiveness as martials.

I have said more than once I'm good with martials transcending mundanity at a certain level point, provided it is called out in the text, so I don't see this as a problem.

Either of my solutions would work for me. That's why I posted them.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Several people have offered real life examples refuting what I'm saying, and I've accepted those.

But, for example, are you saying that the stunts traditionally associated with wuxia are completely bereft of supernatural aspects?

I mean they're martial characters that do fantastic stunts. Seems pretty appropriate analogue for martial characters in the fantastic lands of D&D.