Ways to Fix the Feat System in the Future

[Redbadge]

I've been reading the EN World and WotC forums for a long time, and I have been particularly interested in the recent discussions on how to improve the game. Several places have addressed feat taxes, as well as obsolete and underpowered feats (what CharOp calls "red options.") I've always felt drawn to flavorful feats, but I can never seem to justify taking something over clearly more effective options. I've seen players take options like Linguist over Expertise, and it seems to make me cringe, since it doesn't bring very much to the party and never comes up as often as a simple +1 to attack would. However, I still like having the option for things like Expertise and Weapon Focus in those cases where I imagine my character as an expert swordsman, etc, so I wouldn't want those removed or nerfed. In short, I really want both types of options to feel powerful and exciting.

I feel the solution going forward, possibly in a future edition, is to completely rethink feat balance. For example, if a simple +1 to attack rolls (assuming the basic math is already correct) is so compelling and powerful for an optimizer, the other feats should really bring something to the table that would give that player pause when building their character. Also, I favor consolidating feats as much as possible to prevent bloat. (I don't think we need 100 different types of expertise when the ultimate goal is to give players an option to increase their accuracy. Another example would be Cold Adaptation, which could easily be Energy Adaptation. This reduces potential feat count, while also providing even more room for character customization).

To show you what I mean, here is an example list of heroic tier feats I might include in a future addition of D&D:

Combat Expertise: You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls. (Assumes math is fixed from the start, and this is just one of many good options, rather than mandatory).
Combat Focus: You gain a +2/+4/+6 feat bonus to damage rolls. The bonus increases to +3/+5/+7 if you have combat advantage against the target.
Master Linguist: You gain a +2 feat bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate checks. You also can read and write every language fluently.
Master Athlete: You gain a +2 feat bonus to Athletics, Acrobatics, and Endurance. You also ignore armor check penalties to speed and skill checks.
Master Thief: You gain a +2 feat bonus to Stealth, Thievery, and Streetwise. You may make Thievery checks to disable a trap or open a lock as a minor action.
Master Scholar: You a gain a +2 feat bonus to Arcana, Nature, History, Dungeoneering, and Religion. Once per day, you may reroll an Arcana, Nature, History, Dungeoneering, or Religion check.
Master Observer: You gain a +2 feat bonus to Insight and Perception checks. You gain low-light vision. If you already have low-light vision, you gain dark-vision instead.
Master Healer: You gain a +3 feat bonus to Heal checks. Once per encounter, you can make a First Aid check as a minor action instead of a standard action.
Skill Focus: Choose a skill. You gain training in that skill and a +3 feat bonus to checks with that skill. If you are already trained in that skill, you gain a +5 feat bonus to checks with that skill instead.
Toughness: You gain 5/10/15 hit points. You also gain an additional 2 healing surges per day.
Armor Training: You gain proficiency in the next level of armor with which you are not proficient.
Armor Expertise: You gain a +2 feat bonus to Armor Class.
Improved Defenses: You gain a +1 feat bonus to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.
Improved Initiative: You gain a +4 feat bonus to initiative and gain combat advantage against any enemy that has not yet acted in an encounter.
Quick Draw: You can draw or sheath an item or weapon as a free action. You also gain a +2 feat bonus to initiative checks.
Superior Reflexes
Superior Fortitude
Superior Will
Alertness: You gain a +2 feat bonus to Perception and Initiative checks and cannot be surprised. You can use a standard, move, and minor action during the surprise round.
Energy Adaptation: Choose an energy type. You gain resist 5/10/15 to that energy type. If you already have resistance, instead increase it by 3/5/7. You also gain a +2/+4/+6 feat bonus to damage rolls with attacks that deal that type of damage.
Resilient: You gain a +2 feat bonus to saving throws. Once per encounter, you can reroll a saving throw.
Swift Recovery: You gain a +3/+4/+5 feat bonus to healing surge value. You can use your second wind as a minor action.
Jack of All Trades: You gain a +2 feat bonus to all skill checks.
Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with all weapons.
Two-Weapon Fighting: While wielding a melee weapon in each hand, you gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls and a +1/+2/+3 feat bonus to damage rolls of weapon attacks that you make with a melee weapon.


I doubt the list is balanced as is. I'm just using it as a starting point. I think with something close to this, I wouldn't feel so bad if another player decided to take Master Linguist over Expertise. Also, hopefully the basic feat list would be much smaller, as I would be reluctant to include any super situational feats. Anyone agree or disagree?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

The biggest flaw I see with that list is that you still have some on there that would be "auto-pick" feats (some of them are pretty broken under current design assumptions), which basically goes against the design goals of a feat in the first place.

I like some of the ideas though.

 

[Redbadge]

The biggest flaw I see with that list is that you still have some on there that would be "auto-pick" feats (some of them are pretty broken under current design assumptions), which basically goes against the design goals of a feat in the first place.

I like some of the ideas though.

Oh, I know the list is far from balanced. I do wonder if you think that the combat feats are still the auto-pick ones one this list, or if the "skills" feats come close or are even better here. (Master Thief in particular, for example, may break skill challenge assumptions about action economy). Perhaps you think that a +5 from Skill Focus would be too much here, especially considering the million ways to stack bonuses.

I think one of the easiest ways to aid balance and make the system both easier to understand and easier to create would be to make 90% of bonuses untyped, and have "untyped" bonuses not be able to be stacked. That way something like +5 Skill Focus wouldn't have to break the skill system when stacked with background/item/other bonuses, but is just one (very good) option to be better at a skill.

Under this scenario, you could take a background feat or item to get better at a skill without using up a feat slot, or you could use a feat to get the best bonus available, but you couldn't do more than one of these three. Of course, you don't have to do any of these things if you don't want to.

 

[corwyn77]

Balance issues aside, I don't see the point in redundant or irrelevant conditions. Since there's no reason to take Skill Focus before Skill Training, there's also no reason to put conditions on the bonus. The +3 if untrained isn't needed.

Also, yes, 3 disable trap actions per round does break trap challenges. It might be okay if you make that an encounter ability like the heal check.

 

[Redbadge]

Balance issues aside, I don't see the point in redundant or irrelevant conditions. Since there's no reason to take Skill Focus before Skill Training, there's also no reason to put conditions on the bonus. The +3 if untrained isn't needed.

Also, yes, 3 disable trap actions per round does break trap challenges. It might be okay if you make that an encounter ability like the heal check.

The Skill Focus listed above actually includes skill training in the skill selected. I guess I was actually trying to reduce redundancy by combining Skill Training/Skill Focus into one feat. I really don't find the current version of Skill Training very compelling, particularly with many options available that are strictly better (primarily multiclass), though I know everyone will not agree.

The disable as a minor is not unprecedented. From level 2 on there are skill powers and items (gadgeteer's goggles, lvl 8) that let you do it as a minor action. At level 16, Trap Master skill power turns it into at-will. Right now, I let my players do most skill checks as a minor (disable device, Arcana, etc.) mainly for the same reason I like that Leaders heal as a minor. The rogue can disable the traps, while still attacking if desired, or they can forgo combat manuevering/attacking to take multiple cracks at it as you suggest. I changed it near the beginning of our 4e campaign when the players were frustrated by the trap/encounter design of Thunderspire Labyrinth. I don't think it has been much of a balance issue, especially if the DCs are adjusted to take into account the greater action economy available to the players in these situations. Again, I'm not saying this is this best way to do it.

I really didn't intend to start this thread to advocate for my made up feats . My real point was that I would like to see all feats move towards gold (auto-pick), or even not quite that good as long as they are all on the same basic level (clearly some builds will favor some feats over others). If every feat is an "autopick", as suggested above, then none of them are.

I envision a system where for my level one fighter I'll have an oppurtunity to decide between greater damage/more accuracy, better defenses, more durability, or a slightly less combat oriented option like Master Athlete*, and I'll still be impressed, excited, and feel highly effective no matter which of the options I go with.

*Note that this example feat still has some combat utility in that it likely increases my speed by 1, and jumping and other Athletics checks are occasionally used in combat.

 

[hipnotode]

the Master Linguist feat is SERIOUSLY broken. every language at level 1? well level 2, as no supernal/abysal at level 1, but still, broken as hell...
i would maybe change the skill bonus to "+# (maybe 2 lvl 1, 3 at 11, 4 at epic or somthing?) to skill checks involving talking" or something like that, and then start with three langages and +1 language at level 5,11,15,21,25, with an aditional two languages (but no skill bonus) avalable each time you retrain feat.
that way the skill bonus is only for skills where you have to talk, instead of intimidating someone by holding a knife to there throat or somthing. and your not able to magicaly speak to everyone with only one feat, at herroic teir.

 

[Neubert]

You may have shot yourself in the foot by posting examples.

Anyhow, I like your idea of untyped bonuses doesn't stack - I would probably change it to "all bonuses must have a type" in an attempt to prevent the creep of power. (It is the same thing really, I just don't like to have untyped be a type).
I also agree with consolidating feats and not having too situational feats, as they are simply forgotten during play, but I would personally scale back all the feats so there are no gold options, but no red options either. I can't think off the top of my head what I would change a feat like combat expertise to, but I do think that setting that as the baseline makes for very powerful feats. To me, feats should be the spice and not the main ingredient in the recipe of a character.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

the Master Linguist feat is SERIOUSLY broken. every language at level 1? well level 2, as no supernal/abysal at level 1, but still, broken as hell...
i would maybe change the skill bonus to "+# (maybe 2 lvl 1, 3 at 11, 4 at epic or somthing?) to skill checks involving talking" or something like that, and then start with three langages and +1 language at level 5,11,15,21,25, with an aditional two languages (but no skill bonus) avalable each time you retrain feat.
that way the skill bonus is only for skills where you have to talk, instead of intimidating someone by holding a knife to there throat or somthing. and your not able to magicaly speak to everyone with only one feat, at herroic teir.

I do not really see how you can say such a feat is broken since it really depends on campaign. Combat feats can be boken because combat comes up is virtually every campaign but knowledge of languages becomes only an issue if you are running some kind of investigative campaign.

That said, I have never been happy with 4e's treatment of languages. It is much too binary. Whine in general I support the skill consoldiation of 4e there are areas where the binary nature is problematic from a campaign theme prespective. Language is one of them, technical expertise is another.
Maybe, I would agree with broken but not seriously broken

 

[DEFCON 1]

Well the first thing I'd do here is split up 'feats' from 'talents'. Anything that affects your character in combat is a 'feat'. Everything that is non-combat or skill related is a 'talent'. And you gain both of them at different points throughout the leveling process. That solves the first problem right there, because you are no longer trying to balance combat and non-combat abilities against each other.

 

[hipnotode]

I do not really see how you can say such a feat is broken since it really depends on campaign. Combat feats can be boken because combat comes up is virtually every campaign but knowledge of languages becomes only an issue if you are running some kind of investigative campaign.

That said, I have never been happy with 4e's treatment of languages. It is much too binary. Whine in general I support the skill consoldiation of 4e there are areas where the binary nature is problematic from a campaign theme prespective. Language is one of them, technical expertise is another.
Maybe, I would agree with broken but not seriously broken

i know mostly the uses are group specific and , but i think that the groups that are effected negatively, it would out way the groups that it wouldnt. i would even go as far to say that many of the groups effected positively by having all languages from one feat, wouldnt really be effected anyway.
but yeah, i probably am overeaturating the problem.