We All Won – The OGL Three Years Later

Yeah, but given my access of info at the time and what I observed, I have a hard time trusting the OGL Jesus bit as anything other than another scam.
Are you talking about the original introduction of the OGL?

@RyanD appears to have been a genuine true believer in open licenses, which are a concept that predate them being introduced for RPGs. If he had to sell it in-house as a way to take stuff off of WotC's plate that they were excited about doing anyway, that hardly seems sinister, but just doing a good job of coalition-building in-house.
 

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how would a boutique gaming license that's little understood and without any legal definition be better than the widespread and participatory license used around the world?
I would say that it all depends on how you feel about PI. If you think being able to declare PI ( even if potentially abused ) is a valuable thing, then the CC licenses are problematic.
 

Are you talking about the original introduction of the OGL?

@RyanD appears to have been a genuine true believer in open licenses, which are a concept that predate them being introduced for RPGs. If he had to sell it in-house as a way to take stuff off of WotC's plate that they were excited about doing anyway, that hardly seems sinister, but just doing a good job of coalition-building in-house.
Before it was an open license discussion, even...
 


There are a few folks that are pulling out very old cows out of a ditch. Yes, TSR was not very nice, but that particular chapter closed when WotC bought TSR in '97 and Hasbro bought WotC in '99. IF the TSR mentality was still in control at that time, this site would have never existed. Eric Noah was pretty much collecting D&D rumours/rules on here so thoroughly that we started playing D&D 3e before any 3e product was even released. The old TSR would have killed that completely!

The release of the OGL and 3e gave us a new 'golden age' in the RPG market, many, many companies and great products wouldn't exist without it. After the TSR shenanigans and mess, 3e and the OGL created immense goodwill amongst a very negative crowd. Maybe not everyone was drinking the Kool-Aid, but many where, particularly around here.

And the strength of the OGL wasn't that you couldn't otherwise make compatible D&D products. It made it possible to create D&D compatible products very easily and with a recognized D20 brand, not to mention with very little risk if you kept to the contract rules. There is always risk, as shown, someone can ALWAYS dispute a contract, people can do that with the CC as well (and there have been cases involving the CC all around the world). It took WotC 23 years before the actual took action against the OGL, that's long enough to make many folks grandparents...

That someone at WotC/Hasbro was able to push that through at all shows how little connection with reality WotC/Hasbro management has with reality. They are not alone in that. What I don't understand is that people trust corporations... You can trust a person... And even then their views and trustworthiness might change over time. But corporations and companies in general are a collection of people, whose composition changes constantly, whose owners change constantly.

Somewhere between 2004 (Unearthed Arcana release) and 2008 (4e release) WotC management changed their minds on the usefulness of the OGL and with the 4e release they started changing how they used it, with 5e it changed even further. And with a new 'edition' on the horizon, soaring revenue from the pandemic, the pandemic winding down, someone panicked and tried to rug-pull the OGL and change it into some huge money making scheme. WotC bad! Of course, imho many if not most companies related to D&D/OGL were almost as bad, making a circus out of the whole deal and eventually showing that they could be 'trusted' just about as much as WotC...

And while many folks praise that we got many great RPGs from that, I don't agree. I agree we have many great RPGs, but I look mostly outside of the oodles and oodles of D&D clones. Companies and systems that do not have their foundations in D&D/OGL, but where developed from the start independently as something else and not as a 1-to-1 replacement of D&D. I love what Paizo did with Pathfinder, but it's still a D&D clone, even if they've now filed of the serialnumbers... And a D&D clone is not bad in itself, it might act as a replacement because it does something better then core D&D for you, heck I even considered PF2e as a replacement for D&D when I saw the 5e 2024 development... But people and companies now seeing essentially D&D clones suddenly as completely seperate I find dishonest at worst and a selfdeception at best.
 

There are a few folks that are pulling out very old cows out of a ditch. Yes, TSR was not very nice, but that particular chapter closed when WotC bought TSR in '97 and Hasbro bought WotC in '99. IF the TSR mentality was still in control at that time, this site would have never existed. Eric Noah was pretty much collecting D&D rumours/rules on here so thoroughly that we started playing D&D 3e before any 3e product was even released. The old TSR would have killed that completely!

The release of the OGL and 3e gave us a new 'golden age' in the RPG market, many, many companies and great products wouldn't exist without it. After the TSR shenanigans and mess, 3e and the OGL created immense goodwill amongst a very negative crowd. Maybe not everyone was drinking the Kool-Aid, but many where, particularly around here.

And the strength of the OGL wasn't that you couldn't otherwise make compatible D&D products. It made it possible to create D&D compatible products very easily and with a recognized D20 brand, not to mention with very little risk if you kept to the contract rules. There is always risk, as shown, someone can ALWAYS dispute a contract, people can do that with the CC as well (and there have been cases involving the CC all around the world). It took WotC 23 years before the actual took action against the OGL, that's long enough to make many folks grandparents...

That someone at WotC/Hasbro was able to push that through at all shows how little connection with reality WotC/Hasbro management has with reality. They are not alone in that. What I don't understand is that people trust corporations... You can trust a person... And even then their views and trustworthiness might change over time. But corporations and companies in general are a collection of people, whose composition changes constantly, whose owners change constantly.

Somewhere between 2004 (Unearthed Arcana release) and 2008 (4e release) WotC management changed their minds on the usefulness of the OGL and with the 4e release they started changing how they used it, with 5e it changed even further. And with a new 'edition' on the horizon, soaring revenue from the pandemic, the pandemic winding down, someone panicked and tried to rug-pull the OGL and change it into some huge money making scheme. WotC bad! Of course, imho many if not most companies related to D&D/OGL were almost as bad, making a circus out of the whole deal and eventually showing that they could be 'trusted' just about as much as WotC...

And while many folks praise that we got many great RPGs from that, I don't agree. I agree we have many great RPGs, but I look mostly outside of the oodles and oodles of D&D clones. Companies and systems that do not have their foundations in D&D/OGL, but where developed from the start independently as something else and not as a 1-to-1 replacement of D&D. I love what Paizo did with Pathfinder, but it's still a D&D clone, even if they've now filed of the serialnumbers... And a D&D clone is not bad in itself, it might act as a replacement because it does something better then core D&D for you, heck I even considered PF2e as a replacement for D&D when I saw the 5e 2024 development... But people and companies now seeing essentially D&D clones suddenly as completely seperate I find dishonest at worst and a selfdeception at best.
What were the 3e golden age products, if not clones? I don’t understand why you thought that time was amazing. Whereas now what we have is somehow reductive? It seems like now with 5e we have far more breadth and variety. With various companies innovating improvements to 5e. Before it was many feats, classes and monsters.
 

What were the 3e golden age products, if not clones? I don’t understand why you thought that time was amazing. Whereas now what we have is somehow reductive? It seems like now with 5e we have far more breadth and variety. With various companies innovating improvements to 5e. Before it was many feats, classes and monsters.
Just to use a singular example: Mutants and Masterminds showed folks very early just how versatile the d20 system could be. Games like Spycraft did similar, and even among the poorly chosen d20 adaptations of games like Deadlands, there were experiments with systems that made d20 more interesting. There was a lot of garbage, for sure, but that is equally true now.
 

What were the 3e golden age products, if not clones? I don’t understand why you thought that time was amazing. Whereas now what we have is somehow reductive? It seems like now with 5e we have far more breadth and variety. With various companies innovating improvements to 5e. Before it was many feats, classes and monsters.
You're right, they were 'clones', expansions, products WotC wouldn't or couldn't produce. You could plug something in anything else pretty much within the D&D/D20/OGL ecosystem.

But with the shattering of the license and folks either made new incompatible licenses or dumped licenses all together. They essentially made all their plugs proprietary. A bit like: Standards

And what really annoys me is people are saying: This game, which was build upon D&D is now no longer build upon it and that makes it SO much better. Something like Tales of the Valiant is essentially D&D with some minor bits hacked off and some minor bits added, then went through the laundromat to wash everything D&D away and a new label was tacked on. PF2e went a far more crunchy route and other systems went way less crunchy.

Previously you could use a monster from D20 product A (within designation) and use it in Pathfinder (with some modifications possibly), make an adventure and post it online (within license). If I were to do something like that now with PF2e, chances are good that no one would notice, but the possibility that I get a C&D letter from someone exists now a LOT more then when we were all working under the same license. And that imho promotes piracy when it didn't have to.

I find it specifically annoying with D&D5e 2024 with OGL monster/item conversions, as the SRD 5.2 is only available under the CC license and NOT the OGL... SRD v5.2.1 And while I probably can get away just referencing the SRD 5.1, that's a possible solution now, down the road things get worse and worse license/content compatibility wise.

And the folks that moved completely away from an 'open' license I find particularly hypocritical when they started from an 'open' license.
 

But people and companies now seeing essentially D&D clones suddenly as completely seperate I find dishonest at worst and a selfdeception at best.
And what really annoys me is people are saying: This game, which was build upon D&D is now no longer build upon it and that makes it SO much better. Something like Tales of the Valiant is essentially D&D with some minor bits hacked off and some minor bits added, then went through the laundromat to wash everything D&D away and a new label was tacked on.
It sounds rough. You have my sympathies in these trying times.
 

And what really annoys me is people are saying: This game, which was build upon D&D is now no longer build upon it and that makes it SO much better. Something like Tales of the Valiant is essentially D&D with some minor bits hacked off and some minor bits added, then went through the laundromat to wash everything D&D away and a new label was tacked on.
I don’t think I have seen anyone claim that ToV is not built on 5e… Not sure what you want here, for the game to not exist? Kobold Press can’t very well call it D&D, so they need to give it a different name
 
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