We All Won – The OGL Three Years Later

[delericho]

Right, that the OGL v1.0/v1.0a could --- would --- be revoked by a WotC decree was essentially them spreading FUD that got folks worked up. The aftermath is the result of that FUD.

Well... three years ago there were several lawyers on here who took a look at it, and their conclusion was that that assumption wasn't as iron-clad as had been assumed (and, indeed, intended), that there was just enough ambiguity in the word 'authorized' to suggest it might be possible to de-authorize a version. The only way to know for sure is to take that one through the courts. Given WotC's climb-down, that hasn't happened.

And, unfortunately, the likes of Paizo and Kobold Press can't risk their businesses on that assumption. So they had to move away from the OGL... and that in turn means that it is effectively dead.

 

[Xenolith234]

Well... three years ago there were several lawyers on here who took a look at it, and their conclusion was that that assumption wasn't as iron-clad as had been assumed (and, indeed, intended), that there was just enough ambiguity in the word 'authorized' to suggest it might be possible to de-authorize a version. The only way to know for sure is to take that one through the courts. Given WotC's climb-down, that hasn't happened.

And, unfortunately, the likes of Paizo and Kobold Press can't risk their businesses on that assumption. So they had to move away from the OGL... and that in turn means that it is effectively dead.

Couldn't/wouldn't the architects of the OGL be called into court to talk about the intent of the license?

 

[delericho]

Couldn't/wouldn't the architects of the OGL be called into court to talk about the intent of the license?

I have no idea - I'm not a lawyer.

But I wouldn't bet a business on it!

 

[bsss]

Well... three years ago there were several lawyers on here who took a look at it, and their conclusion was that that assumption wasn't as iron-clad as had been assumed (and, indeed, intended), that there was just enough ambiguity in the word 'authorized' to suggest it might be possible to de-authorize a version. The only way to know for sure is to take that one through the courts. Given WotC's climb-down, that hasn't happened.

And, unfortunately, the likes of Paizo and Kobold Press can't risk their businesses on that assumption. So they had to move away from the OGL... and that in turn means that it is effectively dead.

Yeah, that's how FUD works. Until the point WotC actually took any action against a party for using the v1.0a license (which they never did, they never even finalized a license that suggested they could), and that action succeeded, they're just invoking fear by way of hypothetical lawsuits. That folks bought it for unjust reasons is part of the strategy of spreading FUD. It's the same strategy as Microsoft saying "we have these patents, can you really trust those smelly Linux nerds didn't cause you to violate them?"

To what degree WotC wanted to torpedo the OGL v1.0a, or if they just wanted a cut of something they felt was "theirs", I don't know, but the anti-v1.0a FUD succeeded.

 

[bsss]

Couldn't/wouldn't the architects of the OGL be called into court to talk about the intent of the license?

The point of the FUD isn't to assert foregone truths, it's to allude to enough risk that you get what you want anyway.

This conversation has me thinking about what actual good will measures would be, again, and my thought is that if WotC really wanted to make good with the community, they would transfer ownership of the OGL to Ryan Dancey's group.

 

[mamba]

Couldn't/wouldn't the architects of the OGL be called into court to talk about the intent of the license?

possibly, we also have their statements from back then.

The claim that it could be revoked and that there was enough ambiguity is mostly the lawyer you pay making the best argument for your case, even if the chance of the court agreeing is 1% - and there always is the chance of a surprise ruling in court, outside of that this whole thing was basically WotC misrepresenting the facts and spreading FUD in hopes to get people to the negotiation table

 

[HatWearingFool]

Couldn't/wouldn't the architects of the OGL be called into court to talk about the intent of the license?

I AM NOT A LAWYER, and I live in Canada. But I have been involved in creating contracts.

Even being one of the people that was at the table when specific language was crafted (and had documentation as to what was meant) I was later told by a judge that the intent didn't matter what mattered was what actually made it into the contract.

Now every single case is different, yada yad.

But it was an eye opening moment for me. I was like, I'm attempting the literal example that was covered at the table when the language was drafted... but it didn't matter.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I AM NOT A LAWYER, and I live in Canada. But I have been involved in creating contracts.

Even being one of the people that was at the table when specific language was crafted (and had documentation as to what was meant) I was later told by a judge that the intent didn't matter what mattered was what actually made it into the contract.

Now every single case is different, yada yad.

But it was an eye opening moment for me. I was like, I'm attempting the literal example that was covered at the table when the language was drafted... but it didn't matter.

Sounds like it depends on the judge then.

 

[saviirkad]

It seems like the companies that made entirely separate game systems, like MCDM and Darrington Press, have been going very strong from announcement to present day. A lot of that is also founded on their established customer base and popularity, of course.

For the 5e clones, the only one I followed was Kobold Press's ToV, and it seems to me that its success lived and died with the OGL fiasco. I mean full disclosure, I have zero insight into the inner workings of Kobold Press, so I do recognize I could be way off base. It just seems to me that Kobold Press's crowd funding campaigns suggest after the initial surge, they've dwindled down to about even to under what their pre-OGL campaigns were pulling. With costs going up, externally and I'm sure internally with producing two versions of each release. The versions are very similar but it's still additional work.

Just from my perspective, it seems like the additional support gained from the hype of a new system and the backlash against Wizards has fully dwindled.

I hope I'm wrong though. I may prefer 5e2024 over ToV, but Kobold Press remains my favorite 3PP that I regularly back and purchase from.

 

[Gladius Legis]

If the reports are to be believed, Trusting in WotC is indeed trusting in the users of AI.

One instance is reports that may or may not be true.

The other instance is verifiable and concrete and doing real damage.