Celebrim
Legend
I have to strongly disagree here even though it goes a bit off-topic.
Ok. Sadly, I'm unable to formulate a rebuttle that isn't likely to violate the policies of EnWorld or at least derail the thread. Suffice to say that I think you spend far too little time addressing the cause and ideology being defended and far too much time on the idea that all nationalism is the same. Also, you seem to make the same sort of general error as the OP, arguing that if some benefit accrues (or is percieved to accrue) then its not selfless. But we can always find some benefit accruing or being percieved as accrueing in any sort of selfless behavior. You also seem to be of the delusion that I'm unaware of the nuance involved in my examples and need a history lesson on the subjects, but I really can't address that either.
Most of these cases involve the mechanics of nationalism. If you want to know why people are willing to die for a country in a "selfless" fashion I recommend the classic "Imagined Communities" by Benedict Anderson which is stille the ground-breaking work in nationalism studies.
I suspect that if you are accurately reflecting the nature of the work, I'll find much the same flaws in it.
a) selflessness can be seen as an indicator for being good.
I disagree. Even beyond the very slippery nature of the term, I don't strongly associate a selfless state with the capacity or indication of good, and more importantly I don't think that an indicator of a thing is the thing itself.
b) Real-world examples are of little use when arguing about heroic fantasy roleplay-games
I wouldn't go that far. It's quite possible to imagine a world where the laws governing the world suggest a morality which is different than the morality suggested by the laws we suppose govern this one, but I wouldn't suggest that a real world understanding couldn't inform even that extreme case.
Last edited: