Edena_of_Neith
First Post
(Note to the Moderators: although I discuss the Battle of the Chamber of Mazarbul from Fellowship of the Ring in this article, this article is about D&D and not about Fellowship of the Ring.)
On my DVD player, I took the time to replay the Battle of of the Chamber of Mazarbul, from the film Fellowship of the Ring, a number of times.
That's the battle in Moria against the cave troll and moria-orcs, for those who do not know (I expect 999 out of a 1000 knew that already on this board ...)
Well, the battle lasted around 4 minutes and 30 seconds or so.
In 3rd Edition D&D terms, where a round lasts 6 sounds, that's 45 rounds.
And I counted 44 orcs killed or knocked out in the battle, plus one cave troll. I'm guessing that around 60 orcs actually were in the fray, and those 16 who fell, fell off-camera.
60 moria-orcs (the little orcs) plus one cave troll, versus 9 defenders.
I guess that in D&D, we'd say it was 60 orcs and one cave troll versus a deva (or wizard, depending on interpretation), a ranger, a warrior, a warrior with levels in elven prestige classes, another warrior with levels in dwarven prestige classes, and four fighters (I believe that's the term? ... for a person who fights but who has no formal training? From the DMG? I can't think of anything more specific for the hobbits in fighting terms.)
Of course, the chamber the battle was fought in was not your typical 20 by 20 foot room with a 10 foot ceiling.
It was more ... well, it was about 40 feet deep, I'd say, and 30 feet wide, but it had elevated areas 5 to 10 feet higher than the central area. It had columns running down both sides, it had walls extending into it from the door, and it's ceiling had a number of cathedral like vaults, and ranged from 20 to 40 feet high. Of course, there was a great stone bier in the middle, and a great light flooded down on the bier from a cunning skylight dwelved straight up through the mountain (this is why online games go slower ... I pity the poor DM who must type out description after description after description of impossible to describe rooms ...)
The question, as far as 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons goes, is: how do we do the battle? (Of course, this assumes your party is in that battle instead of those 9 people, or you can substitute any similar large battle for the one in the film.)
Well, one way is to get a good large table, put a large plastic sheet marked out in squares on it, place miniatures on that, and play it out, round by round by round. (Of course, that's a lot of miniatures, but clever players and DMs won't have trouble with that! And there are always dice, as substitutes for pewter figurines.)
Problem is that, with this approach, the battle is going to take 8 hours (unless of course the party wizard Fireballs ALL of the orcs at the start, but let's assume the combat gets down and dirty, ala the film.)
Playing out an 8 hour battle is great, and it can be fun, but there goes Saturday night (well, ok, HALF of Saturday night) and there was mighty little room for roleplaying, or for other battles, or for other events of any sort.
Heh. And if the party does not run away when 60 more orcs show up, I guess it's another 8 hour battle!
Nice thing about this approach is that everyone knows exactly where everyone else is, including opponents.
There is no need to do guesswork - the miniatures show everyone exactly where everything is, and even the room can be drawn out on the paper with reasonable accuracy.
But again, it's 8 hours for the battle. 45 rounds, with 9 against 61. A tall order, I would think, for both players and DMs (especially for the DM, but he is in no position to complain, since he created the scenario!)
There is another approach, and like the one above it has advantages and drawbacks.
The combat can be run freeform.
In other words, there is no map, no miniatures, no nothing of the sort.
The DM describes to the players what is coming, what and who is where, what the chamber looks like, what the characters look like (especially after a cave troll has whacked them with it's maul), and of course the players are always asking questions: where is that particular opponent? ... where is the mage? .. where is the bier? ... who is standing on the bier? ... and so on.
This approach requires the DM and players to visualize the chamber, the orcs, the cave troll, and each other.
They must visualize where their character (s) are at any given time, where the enemy is, where their allies are ... they must do it all, in their own heads, and all they have to go on is what the DM tells them.
A couple of problems here:
The poor DM must envision for himself the movements of 60 orcs plus cave troll, and the movements of the party, plus he must answer the questions and requests of 9 people, and being human he has a limit to how long he can do this before his brain runs out his ear canals.
Secondly, in any situation involving high action and a large number of things happening at once, everyone has a different view of the reality (consider the cliche of how everyone remembers an accident differently, IRL.)
So, I the player might think my character and the orcs were over here, when the DM knows they are over there (the DM is always right, of course, except ... how can anyone keep track of over 70 beings all at once for 45 rounds?)
If you look at the film, you'll see that you cannot keep up with the action (it was filmed from a combatant's point of view.)
Even if you still-frame it, and play it back frame by frame, you'll have many instances where it is unclear what is happening even in the immediate foreground, much less what is happening in the recesses of the room.
In medieval times, in broad daylight, they had Standards, and those involved in melee could look up and at least see where their side was (unless, of course, they were wearing helms in which case they could hardly see at all, much less see Standards.)
In a dungeon battle like the one portrayed in the film, we have very poor lighting: torches, and that stab of light on the bier, and of course the torches are being waved around, dropped, slammed into foes, and some are going out. Shadows are leaping wildly to and fro.
It would truly take a deva, or angel, or superheroic being, to actually know where everyone was, at any given time, over the course of those 45 rounds.
They would have a hard enough time even knowing where THEY THEMSELVES were, even if unarmored and unhelmed.
(In the film, Aragorn did not know Frodo's location, or that the cave troll was about to squash Frodo, until long after it began to attempt said squashing. Gandalf did not know until Frodo bought it. The same situation faces every character in the uproar of a large melee ... which is why Fireballs are dangerous critters indeed. If the mage doesn't know poor Frodo is going to get squashed, or that he is even being attacked, or even where he is ... well, he throws Fireball at his peril.)
The biggest advantage with this approach is that it is fast.
Fast means more time for roleplaying, for treasure hunting (and treasure division) and for other battles (or, outrunning several thousand odd orcs, in the case of the film, then running down a certain crumbling stair, and ...)
But players argue.
Or, in more restrained settings, they question ... and why not? If they think their character is by the door, and you suddenly as DM tell them they are at the back of the room, something went askew, no? Yes, you are the DM, and you are always right, but they WILL have their own images of what is occurring, and at least will try to direct the actions of their characters as best they can, right?
If they argue, and you the DM allow it, then the battle stops, and the fight, starts. And if you're the kind of DM that allows fights, then you might as well have used grid paper, for the battle of the imagination is GOING to take 8 hours, most of it used up by arguing players.
But let's assume you the DM stomp on such folk, and your players are politer than that anyways.
It's going to be mayhem through the whole combat. Nobody is really going to know who is where. Nobody is going to know how many foes remain, where they are, or what they are doing. If your players are lucky, they MIGHT know where THEY are (when in armor, being attacked, bumping into walls, crashing into foes, swinging weapons, amidst wildly changing light, that's a pretty good feat in itself) but they will never really know the whole situation until after the fact.
Sorta like real-life medieval combat, once started.
I have rarely encountered any older players who enjoy such situations.
Older players tend to want to see the larger picture, and have greater control over their characters.
Older players do not like being told, in rapid succession (the following spoken at break-neck speed) : THAT ORC IS CHARGING. THERE IS ONE 5 FEET RIGHT. THERE IS ONE 2 FEET BEHIND - HE IS SWINGING! YELLS ARISE FROM YOUR LEFT. OVER THERE IS YOUR FRIEND, WITH 5 ORCS ON HIM ... NO, IT'S SEVEN ... UH, NO, IT'S TWO OTHER PARTY MEMBERS AND FIVE ORCS. YOU SMASH INTO THE WALL, AND ALL YOU SEE IS DWARVEN CARVED STONE. YOU WHIRL AND AN ORC IS IN YOUR FACE ... NO, IT'S YOUR FRIEND ... THERE COMES ONE FROM THE LEFT! ANOTHER IS CHARGING FROM 20 FEET OUT. THERE IS ONE LEVELLING A CROSSBOW ... AT YOUR MAGE. YOU DO WHAT?
Get the picture?
Imagine that going on, for 45 rounds. Or, for a solid hour of real time. I don't know about you, but I think I wouldn't need any caffeinated drinks in such a game, but I sure as heck might need sedatives. (YOU HEAR MORE ORCS OUTSIDE. MUST BE THOUSANDS OF THEM THIS TIME! QUICK, WHAT DO YOU DO??! TO THE BRIDGE OF KHAZAD-DUM, SHOUTS YOUR WIZARD!)
Well well well ...
In short, folks, what I'm saying is that D&D cannot be played.
The game is inherently impossible ... at least, it is impossible if you are going to set 9 against 60 plus 1.
A distinguished person I know (not me) has stated that here is a game that is so inherently flawed that there is no point in even trying to play it, since there is absolutely no way it can be done.
For one way, it is ludicrious in time consumed.
The other way, it is impossible to verbally describe what is a daunting task to even see, even when you slow the DVD down to a frame by frame analysis of what happened.
Yet ...
We Gamers (I stress the WE) do this kind of thing all the time.
We regularly have those big 9 on 60 + 1 battles.
We regularly pull off what cannot, by definition, be done ... or at least, done enjoyably and within a reasonable time frame.
We enjoy ourselves AND we do it within a reasonable time frame, both.
And I guess we do it by the fact that we know it cannot be done, but we give it our best shot everytime we try.
That is, we know we seek to attempt the impossible, and we do, and we partway succeed in doing the said impossible.
Otherwise, how could we be having any fun, or getting any gaming done in the time we have to game?
We confound people, for we regularly seek to achieve the impossible, and we regularly accomplish the impossible to some degree.
The Rational Beings in this world look at us with jaws agape.
The Skeptical Beings long ago walked away, murmuring something about Beings From Outer Space.
But the Creative and Imaginative People ... well, WE are some of the Creative and Imaginative People.
We are the dreamers, and from us stories, high drama, and great artistry arise.
We are the creative, and the halls of conventions shake with our mirth, our exuberance, and the stories we are writing (and sometimes, from our arguments.)
We are the imaginative, and as Cyberspace is it's own reality, so too is the reality that exists in our minds, sweeping us up in it's embrace for hours, days, or years on end.
And we are the audacious, for we regularly attempt the impossible, and somehow we succeed time and time again in the attempt.
We are the Gamers.
That's something to be proud of.
On my DVD player, I took the time to replay the Battle of of the Chamber of Mazarbul, from the film Fellowship of the Ring, a number of times.
That's the battle in Moria against the cave troll and moria-orcs, for those who do not know (I expect 999 out of a 1000 knew that already on this board ...)
Well, the battle lasted around 4 minutes and 30 seconds or so.
In 3rd Edition D&D terms, where a round lasts 6 sounds, that's 45 rounds.
And I counted 44 orcs killed or knocked out in the battle, plus one cave troll. I'm guessing that around 60 orcs actually were in the fray, and those 16 who fell, fell off-camera.
60 moria-orcs (the little orcs) plus one cave troll, versus 9 defenders.
I guess that in D&D, we'd say it was 60 orcs and one cave troll versus a deva (or wizard, depending on interpretation), a ranger, a warrior, a warrior with levels in elven prestige classes, another warrior with levels in dwarven prestige classes, and four fighters (I believe that's the term? ... for a person who fights but who has no formal training? From the DMG? I can't think of anything more specific for the hobbits in fighting terms.)
Of course, the chamber the battle was fought in was not your typical 20 by 20 foot room with a 10 foot ceiling.
It was more ... well, it was about 40 feet deep, I'd say, and 30 feet wide, but it had elevated areas 5 to 10 feet higher than the central area. It had columns running down both sides, it had walls extending into it from the door, and it's ceiling had a number of cathedral like vaults, and ranged from 20 to 40 feet high. Of course, there was a great stone bier in the middle, and a great light flooded down on the bier from a cunning skylight dwelved straight up through the mountain (this is why online games go slower ... I pity the poor DM who must type out description after description after description of impossible to describe rooms ...)
The question, as far as 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons goes, is: how do we do the battle? (Of course, this assumes your party is in that battle instead of those 9 people, or you can substitute any similar large battle for the one in the film.)
Well, one way is to get a good large table, put a large plastic sheet marked out in squares on it, place miniatures on that, and play it out, round by round by round. (Of course, that's a lot of miniatures, but clever players and DMs won't have trouble with that! And there are always dice, as substitutes for pewter figurines.)
Problem is that, with this approach, the battle is going to take 8 hours (unless of course the party wizard Fireballs ALL of the orcs at the start, but let's assume the combat gets down and dirty, ala the film.)
Playing out an 8 hour battle is great, and it can be fun, but there goes Saturday night (well, ok, HALF of Saturday night) and there was mighty little room for roleplaying, or for other battles, or for other events of any sort.
Heh. And if the party does not run away when 60 more orcs show up, I guess it's another 8 hour battle!
Nice thing about this approach is that everyone knows exactly where everyone else is, including opponents.
There is no need to do guesswork - the miniatures show everyone exactly where everything is, and even the room can be drawn out on the paper with reasonable accuracy.
But again, it's 8 hours for the battle. 45 rounds, with 9 against 61. A tall order, I would think, for both players and DMs (especially for the DM, but he is in no position to complain, since he created the scenario!)
There is another approach, and like the one above it has advantages and drawbacks.
The combat can be run freeform.
In other words, there is no map, no miniatures, no nothing of the sort.
The DM describes to the players what is coming, what and who is where, what the chamber looks like, what the characters look like (especially after a cave troll has whacked them with it's maul), and of course the players are always asking questions: where is that particular opponent? ... where is the mage? .. where is the bier? ... who is standing on the bier? ... and so on.
This approach requires the DM and players to visualize the chamber, the orcs, the cave troll, and each other.
They must visualize where their character (s) are at any given time, where the enemy is, where their allies are ... they must do it all, in their own heads, and all they have to go on is what the DM tells them.
A couple of problems here:
The poor DM must envision for himself the movements of 60 orcs plus cave troll, and the movements of the party, plus he must answer the questions and requests of 9 people, and being human he has a limit to how long he can do this before his brain runs out his ear canals.
Secondly, in any situation involving high action and a large number of things happening at once, everyone has a different view of the reality (consider the cliche of how everyone remembers an accident differently, IRL.)
So, I the player might think my character and the orcs were over here, when the DM knows they are over there (the DM is always right, of course, except ... how can anyone keep track of over 70 beings all at once for 45 rounds?)
If you look at the film, you'll see that you cannot keep up with the action (it was filmed from a combatant's point of view.)
Even if you still-frame it, and play it back frame by frame, you'll have many instances where it is unclear what is happening even in the immediate foreground, much less what is happening in the recesses of the room.
In medieval times, in broad daylight, they had Standards, and those involved in melee could look up and at least see where their side was (unless, of course, they were wearing helms in which case they could hardly see at all, much less see Standards.)
In a dungeon battle like the one portrayed in the film, we have very poor lighting: torches, and that stab of light on the bier, and of course the torches are being waved around, dropped, slammed into foes, and some are going out. Shadows are leaping wildly to and fro.
It would truly take a deva, or angel, or superheroic being, to actually know where everyone was, at any given time, over the course of those 45 rounds.
They would have a hard enough time even knowing where THEY THEMSELVES were, even if unarmored and unhelmed.
(In the film, Aragorn did not know Frodo's location, or that the cave troll was about to squash Frodo, until long after it began to attempt said squashing. Gandalf did not know until Frodo bought it. The same situation faces every character in the uproar of a large melee ... which is why Fireballs are dangerous critters indeed. If the mage doesn't know poor Frodo is going to get squashed, or that he is even being attacked, or even where he is ... well, he throws Fireball at his peril.)
The biggest advantage with this approach is that it is fast.
Fast means more time for roleplaying, for treasure hunting (and treasure division) and for other battles (or, outrunning several thousand odd orcs, in the case of the film, then running down a certain crumbling stair, and ...)
But players argue.
Or, in more restrained settings, they question ... and why not? If they think their character is by the door, and you suddenly as DM tell them they are at the back of the room, something went askew, no? Yes, you are the DM, and you are always right, but they WILL have their own images of what is occurring, and at least will try to direct the actions of their characters as best they can, right?
If they argue, and you the DM allow it, then the battle stops, and the fight, starts. And if you're the kind of DM that allows fights, then you might as well have used grid paper, for the battle of the imagination is GOING to take 8 hours, most of it used up by arguing players.
But let's assume you the DM stomp on such folk, and your players are politer than that anyways.
It's going to be mayhem through the whole combat. Nobody is really going to know who is where. Nobody is going to know how many foes remain, where they are, or what they are doing. If your players are lucky, they MIGHT know where THEY are (when in armor, being attacked, bumping into walls, crashing into foes, swinging weapons, amidst wildly changing light, that's a pretty good feat in itself) but they will never really know the whole situation until after the fact.
Sorta like real-life medieval combat, once started.
I have rarely encountered any older players who enjoy such situations.
Older players tend to want to see the larger picture, and have greater control over their characters.
Older players do not like being told, in rapid succession (the following spoken at break-neck speed) : THAT ORC IS CHARGING. THERE IS ONE 5 FEET RIGHT. THERE IS ONE 2 FEET BEHIND - HE IS SWINGING! YELLS ARISE FROM YOUR LEFT. OVER THERE IS YOUR FRIEND, WITH 5 ORCS ON HIM ... NO, IT'S SEVEN ... UH, NO, IT'S TWO OTHER PARTY MEMBERS AND FIVE ORCS. YOU SMASH INTO THE WALL, AND ALL YOU SEE IS DWARVEN CARVED STONE. YOU WHIRL AND AN ORC IS IN YOUR FACE ... NO, IT'S YOUR FRIEND ... THERE COMES ONE FROM THE LEFT! ANOTHER IS CHARGING FROM 20 FEET OUT. THERE IS ONE LEVELLING A CROSSBOW ... AT YOUR MAGE. YOU DO WHAT?
Get the picture?
Imagine that going on, for 45 rounds. Or, for a solid hour of real time. I don't know about you, but I think I wouldn't need any caffeinated drinks in such a game, but I sure as heck might need sedatives. (YOU HEAR MORE ORCS OUTSIDE. MUST BE THOUSANDS OF THEM THIS TIME! QUICK, WHAT DO YOU DO??! TO THE BRIDGE OF KHAZAD-DUM, SHOUTS YOUR WIZARD!)
Well well well ...
In short, folks, what I'm saying is that D&D cannot be played.
The game is inherently impossible ... at least, it is impossible if you are going to set 9 against 60 plus 1.
A distinguished person I know (not me) has stated that here is a game that is so inherently flawed that there is no point in even trying to play it, since there is absolutely no way it can be done.
For one way, it is ludicrious in time consumed.
The other way, it is impossible to verbally describe what is a daunting task to even see, even when you slow the DVD down to a frame by frame analysis of what happened.
Yet ...
We Gamers (I stress the WE) do this kind of thing all the time.
We regularly have those big 9 on 60 + 1 battles.
We regularly pull off what cannot, by definition, be done ... or at least, done enjoyably and within a reasonable time frame.
We enjoy ourselves AND we do it within a reasonable time frame, both.
And I guess we do it by the fact that we know it cannot be done, but we give it our best shot everytime we try.
That is, we know we seek to attempt the impossible, and we do, and we partway succeed in doing the said impossible.
Otherwise, how could we be having any fun, or getting any gaming done in the time we have to game?
We confound people, for we regularly seek to achieve the impossible, and we regularly accomplish the impossible to some degree.
The Rational Beings in this world look at us with jaws agape.
The Skeptical Beings long ago walked away, murmuring something about Beings From Outer Space.
But the Creative and Imaginative People ... well, WE are some of the Creative and Imaginative People.
We are the dreamers, and from us stories, high drama, and great artistry arise.
We are the creative, and the halls of conventions shake with our mirth, our exuberance, and the stories we are writing (and sometimes, from our arguments.)
We are the imaginative, and as Cyberspace is it's own reality, so too is the reality that exists in our minds, sweeping us up in it's embrace for hours, days, or years on end.
And we are the audacious, for we regularly attempt the impossible, and somehow we succeed time and time again in the attempt.
We are the Gamers.
That's something to be proud of.
