We don't have the 15 Minute Adventure Day Problem

[Schmoe]

For our part, I discovered the 15 minute day on the very first play of Keep on the Borderlands, when the magic-user spent his spell (singular) and rapidly grew tired of missing all the time with his dagger, before he was murdered by a kobold.

Absolutely. When the only story going is "how much loot can we get from this dungeon," there's no reason not to be in tip-top shape for each battle.

I see your point, but I'd argue that this is no alleviation of the "15 minute day", because the scenario you suggest doesn't address some issues that make the FMD a problem for some groups.

First, part of the issue is that some classes feel the FMD effect much stronger than others.
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Second, variability is nice, but it needs to be said that encounters under 3e can vary wildly in difficulty based on the party make-up.
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Third, part of the function of the FMD is the lack of participation factor.
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Fourth, you've kind of loaded the deck there. [Adventure B may be just as likely to be a FMD]
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How much of an issue that is for a group is entirely dependent on the individual gaming group and their playstyle. For some it might be a non-issue, while for others it could be a gamestopper.

Those are all very valid points. But for me, I guess it boils down to the fact that in any game with any sort of expendable resources, there is going to be incentive to retreat and recoup the resources before pushing on. Heck, even in something like Top Secret, where the only expendable resources might be a stick of dynamite and a single-shot pen gun, once those are gone you have some incentive to go back to base to get some more.

The only way to completely eliminate a fifteen minute adventuring day is to either completely eliminate expendable resources, or completely eliminate recovery of the resources within the scope of an adventure. The first approach doesn't feel like D&D, for better or worse. The second approach can be approximated with some adventure design, but not entirely. It seems that taking either to extreme is unlikely to satisfy most D&D players, so it all becomes a matter of how much of the FMD effect is "unfun" and to what lengths people are willing to go to eliminate it. Hence, this thread

 

[Noumenon]

in any game with any sort of expendable resources, there is going to be incentive to retreat and recoup the resources before pushing on.

You're reminding me of Doom. For years I played that game hiding behind every wall and sniping with the shotgun so I wouldn't run out of ammunition. Then finally I turned the difficulty down to "Not too rough" and started running around actually using my plasma rifle and blowing through the bodies. It was so much more fun than being "challenged" all the time and I got to see a lot more new levels.

Maybe people are turning the difficulty level on D&D up a little too high.

 

[FireLance]

Maybe people are turning the difficulty level on D&D up a little too high.

Let's just say that different people want different things from D&D, from those who promote the philosophy that character death builds character, to those who think that having their PCs flatten everything in their path is an enjoyable way to game.

 

[AllisterH]

You're reminding me of Doom. For years I played that game hiding behind every wall and sniping with the shotgun so I wouldn't run out of ammunition. Then finally I turned the difficulty down to "Not too rough" and started running around actually using my plasma rifle and blowing through the bodies. It was so much more fun than being "challenged" all the time and I got to see a lot more new levels.

Maybe people are turning the difficulty level on D&D up a little too high.

Heh.

This is one of the reasons why HALO became so popular. HALO's regenerative shield meant that a quick breather and you could get back to the action and you no longer needed to camp.

Compared to its predecessors which utilized health/stim packs, HALO is played at a consistently higher pace.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Heh.

This is one of the reasons why HALO became so popular. HALO's regenerative shield meant that a quick breather and you could get back to the action and you no longer needed to camp.

Compared to its predecessors which utilized health/stim packs, HALO is played at a consistently higher pace.

Its the instant gratification thing. For a video game I want that. If its just me and a screen, downtime is a death sentence.

PnP games don't have to have that same IG level built into the mechanics for me to have fun. Enjoying the company of friends makes the experience enjoyable even if our characters are resting and renewing resources. I guess its the constant IG factor that makes certain systems feel video gamey.

 

[WizarDru]

"The CR system regarding undead doesn't take into account turning. The CR of an undead is based on how much of a challenge it is if there is no turning available; the effect is that parties without a cleric can handle undead encounters (you don't need a cleric), but if you do have a cleric it makes these encounters a lot easier".

The original text can be found here

SKR is talking about 3.5, there, FWIW. However, the cleric's contribution is not just limited to turning, and I wasn't even actually considering it. I was thinking more in the terms of buffs and defenses against the litany of attacks and powers that most undead have that only the cleric really has adequate defenses for. A creature like a shadow, ghast, wight, mohrg or bodak (to name a few) can leave a party in a terrible state without a cleric on hand to remove their debilitating effects or buff the party to defend against them. A party going up against a bodak without death ward is likely to leave the encounter at least one party member dead. Most undead have powerful negative energy effects that require a cleric or often a more powerful druid to counter.

Note that I'm not recommending that their CRs be changed, per se. I'm just pointing out that they showcase how the CR system needs to be analyzed in the context of the game and an individual group. The bodak is exactly the kind of creature that can lead to the FMD, when he kills two players in two rounds and the party has to turn around and go home. Which is OK, if it happens once in a while. I don't have a problem with the FMD happening, I have a problem with it happening a lot.

 

[Remathilis]

I rarely saw the 15-min problem until I DMed Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Never much of a module person (though I to admit a few Goodman ones), the fight/rest/repeat tended at low level (due to low hp and few spells) but began to fade at mid-higher level.

EtCR proved me wrong.

Most of the combats were drag-out battles. This was mostly due to foes with high HP, were incorporeal (miss chance/touch AC), and/or who did more than hp damage (energy drain/ability score drain) which promoted near-constant use of short-term buffs (Death Ward) and restoratives (Restoration) from priests and plenty of longer-term buffs from wizards and artificers (Undead Bane Weapon was a classic, as was Align Weapon) and liberal use of [Force] magic. Even with reserve feats (Fiery Burst and Healing Touch) and a small collection of wands the artificer made (cures, magic missile) They CONSTANTLY only did 2-3 encounters before resting, lest Strahd and his goons take them unprepared and too weak.

Timed by day, it took them 10 days to cover 1/3rd of his Castle, averaging 3 rooms a day.

So yes, it does exist. You can take steps to avoid it (trash mobs, liberal healing, etc) but don't doubt the fact that its there.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I mean that's cool and everything but in the game I described, the player feels no need to slacken off (and nor does the party need him to - unless they wish to play). The resources at his disposal are too easy to work around; too easy to keep pulling out effective stuff. You can then try and target the mage (but I'm not a fan of that style of DMing), or if you try to challenge the entire party, you really run the risk of losing characters. The game just enters this really weird state where the archmage is king and the rest of the guys are pretty much passengers. Again please note the specific conditions in which this has happened (high level, large party, disparate power, highly optimized Archmage etc.). I can understand how your group has played and kudos to the player playing the mage for letting the others have a turn. I warn you though, at higher levels, there is no need for him to take the foot off the gas.

I am talking about mid- to high-level with a large party.

The RttToEE party finished up at 11th level, and the party size was 8 regular players.

The guy playing the mage? He plays spellcasters the same way whether they're tyros or demigods. He'd rather have spells available at the end of the day than run out of spells during a combat, and its proven to be an extremely effective playstyle for the 20+ years I've gamed with him. Its next to impossible to get him to run through his entire repertoire of spells.

And for the record, on those rare occasions that he does tap out, he suggests rather than demands that we camp...if its feasible at the moment.

 

[Allister]

The bodak is one of those weird ass monsters that has a CR that is either too high or too low depending on how well the PCs guess what they're facing.

Similar to the harpy with respect to silence, if you have Death Ward up, a bodak gets munched damn easily even by a single fighter of half its CR.

Yet, I've seen a "rando" encounter with a Bodak that literally wiped out a 5 person party whose level was one higher than the CR of the bodak.

Never really been a fan of those style of monsters....