We got TPK-ed in the Kobold Hall!

[jasin]

I played my first 4E game yesterday (the sample dungeon from the DMG), so here are some impressions.

We had a half-elf charismatic rogue, a tiefling infernal warlock, a tiefling tactical warlord (the additional KotS character from the WotC site) and a human two-handed fighter. There were only three players, so the last two were PCs both played by me. In retrospect, I'm not sure why one of the other guys didn't play two characters, to bring us up to five PCs.

It seemed that everyone really has to pay attention for the warlord to shine. I was playing a fighter in parallel and I had trouble coordinating with the warlord to put his movement powers to good use. I also missed both times I used my daily (Leading the Attack), so that might have made the warlord look a bit lacklustre too.

The fighter was pretty straightforward to play, and fun. I never did use Sure Strike, though. It seemed Reaping Strike was much more sure.

The rogue got beat up on the most. He did wander away from the fighter a lot of the time, but even when he didn't, the fighter could only mark one enemy. The warlock was the safest, just shooting lasers from the back of the room.

We had some trouble keeping track of who was marked, and we probably would have had more if we hadn't missed the fact that the fighter's mark only lasts until the end of his next turn.

I didn't mind the 4E's funky diagonals at short ranges and during movement, but there was a strange bit where a guy diagonally across the room from the warlock was closer to him than the guy straight across the room from him.

Two questions came up: when a fighter attacks multiple enemies on his turn, can he mark all of them? How about a paladin, can he have multiple Divine Challenges in effect (as long as he end his turn adjacent to all his targets)? It seems to me that the answer is yes.

Do the opponents know the exact effect of the powers that hit them? For example, the warlord has a power that makes an enemy who shifts provoke an OA from an ally of warlord's choice. Does the enemy know he'll get hit when they shift? Do they know they'll get stopped if they get hit by a movement OA from the fighter?

 

[Contents May Vary]

Do the opponents know the exact effect of the powers that hit them?

Yep. From PHB pg 57 (bottom right corner):

"Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed."

 

[hong]

The fighter can mark multiple targets, but the paladin's divine challenge only works on one person at a time.

Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target.
...
While a target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty ... Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target before the start of your next turn.

 

[Mengu]

In retrospect, I'm not sure why one of the other guys didn't play two characters, to bring us up to five PCs.

I sure hope your DM scaled the encounters down for four PC's, otherwise, TPK is a very natural result. Even when not scaled down, it's a very difficult encounter for 5 characters.

It seemed that everyone really has to pay attention for the warlord to shine. I was playing a fighter in parallel and I had trouble coordinating with the warlord to put his movement powers to good use.

Indeed, everyone has to remember what the warlord can do. Remember to add those initiative bonuses, remember to add those bonuses during action points, ready actions, remembering the warlord can move them around, etc. The warlord also is sometimes better off readying actions for his allies to get in position before he attacks, so those encounter/daily powers work more reliably.

We had some trouble keeping track of who was marked, and we probably would have had more if we hadn't missed the fact that the fighter's mark only lasts until the end of his next turn.

We somehow managed to miss that too.

when a fighter attacks multiple enemies on his turn, can he mark all of them?

Yes. However keep in mind he actually has to make an attack in order to mark. Simply doing damage (for instance with cleave), is not sufficient. However, a Dragonborn fighter who breathes on multiple enemies can mark all of them.

How about a paladin, can he have multiple Divine Challenges in effect (as long as he end his turn adjacent to all his targets)?

No. Divine challenge remains in effect until you challenge a different target.

Do the opponents know the exact effect of the powers that hit them? For example, the warlord has a power that makes an enemy who shifts provoke an OA from an ally of warlord's choice. Does the enemy know he'll get hit when they shift? Do they know they'll get stopped if they get hit by a movement OA from the fighter?

Yes to all. Similarly you know exactly what a creature has done to you, when they attack you.

 

[jasin]

I sure hope your DM scaled the encounters down for four PC's, otherwise, TPK is a very natural result. Even when not scaled down, it's a very difficult encounter for 5 characters.

The DM didn't scale anything down, and it turns out you're right.

A bit strange, that, for a demo dungeon in the DMG. Who are they expecting to play through this, tactical experts with years of experience at 4E?

Yes. However keep in mind he actually has to make an attack in order to mark. Simply doing damage (for instance with cleave), is not sufficient. However, a Dragonborn fighter who breathes on multiple enemies can mark all of them.

Or a fighter with the wizard multiclass feat that casts Scorching Burst from 10 squares away... Interesting.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Shoot, I TPK'd encounter 4 in the DMG with 5 PCs. Kobold slingers w/ glue pots to immobilize PCs in the path of a trap FTW!

 

[Xorn]

My group (4 PCs, and I forgot to scale it) murdered encounter 4. The damned dwarf fighter and tiefling warlord rushed the walls, climbed up over them, and slaughtered those poor slingers at close range. Then they climbed over the other side (didn't even try the door, heh) and dropped down on the north side, obliterating the wyrmpriest and dragonshields. While all this was happening, the ranger and rogue took the drake out in two rounds, then the rogue went right and the ranger went left. In the end the wyrmpriest was flanked by the fighter and rogue, the warlord was holding his own with the dragonshields, and the ranger was just slaughtering the dragonshields, who were helpless to stop her.

The hardest encounter for them was encounter 3, where the guard drakes were ROCKING the fighter and warlord at the door.

Okay, actually the dragon was pretty rough, too--because they blew their dailies on encounter 4.

 

[KarinsDad]

We played this yesterday and crushed it.

First levels: Dragonborn Paladin, Elf Ranger, Human Wizard, Eladrin Warlock, and Dwarf Cleric.

In all of these battles, the Paladin went into negative hit points once. Nobody else went down.

The first 3 encounters were fairly quick and easy, and the vast majority of players did not even bother to use up all (or in some cases any) of their Encounter powers in them. The last 2 encounters were challenging, but still not too bad.

We did all 5 encounters in about 4.5 hours. We used 3 of our 5 daily powers in encounter #4. We had maybe 30% of our healing surges and 2 daily powers left over, so we did consider not continuing on, but our previous successes made us feel confident and we went to encounter 5. After encounter 5, we had used all but one daily (the Cleric's daily did not get used iirc) and still had healing surges left over (except for the Paladin who I think used all of his up).

Most of us had 2 or 3 action points left over as well after these 5 encounters (in the combined game day, these were encounters #3 through #7 for us, so we had hit 3 milestones and gotten a total of 4 action points each). People used action points when it seemed like it would give us a significant advantage, not just to use them to get another attack roll (and it worked well that all 5 PCs had actions points available to use in both combat #4 and combat #5).

So, 7 encounters in a game day and PCs still had some resources remaining.


We used the plastic rings from the top of plastic soda bottles for bloodied, marked, cursed, hunter's quarry, and cloud of daggers. We also use colored stones for conditions like slowed, stunned, etc. The rings work well because they hang onto or fall to the base of a miniature and do not clutter up the grid. The colored stones are a bit more problematic because they sometimes get in the way, but still work ok.


This was one of the better sessions that I've played in years. I had a lot of fun. It was great.


The kobold slingers did glue 3 PCs in the path of the boulder trap, but my Wizard used Orb of Force to do something like 17 points of damage to the boulder (and damaged the drake next to it as well which was a pleasant surprise) and the DM ruled distorting the boulder slowed it up some, so the PCs took slightly less damage (although two of the PCs still took 2 attacks from it being under it for the same round).

A challenge, but not devastating.


I've come to the conclusion that 4E is all about synergy of abilities.

For example, my Wizard got bloodied in the boulder room. The player of the Cleric was preparing to use a Healing Word on the Wizard, but not knowing this, my Wizard retreated out of sight of the Cleric and used his own Second Wind (which actually heals less). My PC lost that synergy (although it was still an ok move because one of the NPCs could have dropped the Wizard before the Cleric could actually heal him).

Another example, my Wizard wanted to cast Flaming Sphere against the Dragon, but the Dragon was surrounded near a wall and there was no place to put the sphere that it would not harm another PC. So, my Wizard had to ask the Cleric to back away from the Dragon so that a spot would be available. This lost the PCs one round of the sphere damaging the Dragon. In the long run, it didn't matter. But, a round of synergy and auto-damage was lost.


This to me is the crux of 4E. It's all about tactical synergy. If players combine their abilities and work as a team, even challenging encounters can become almost routine. If each player is off doing his or her own thing, eventually, TPKs will result. Course, if a DM allows tactical table talk, a team should be even more effective (but in our game, we tend to avoid table talk and have our PCs talk during their turn, so the Wizard not knowing the Cleric's intent before his turn and vice versa can happen more often).


Good or bad dice rolls. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The DM picking one PC to attack instead of another. Being 25 feet away instead of 30 feet away. Having used a Daily power earlier in the day. Forgetting bonuses or other benefits that a power gives.

All of these and many many other variables can lead to either success or failure. I think this is more true of 4E than any previous version. With push, pull, slide, and many special additional properties of powers, I think 4E is more tactical in nature than any previous version.

It's mostly a matter of getting used to the abilities of one's fellow PCs in order to be effective in combat.

Also, running away when getting toasted is a good idea.

 

[Thanee]

I didn't mind the 4E's funky diagonals at short ranges and during movement, but there was a strange bit where a guy diagonally across the room from the warlock was closer to him than the guy straight across the room from him.

We changed that even before the first encounter to the established 1-2-1-2 alternate for diagonal steps. It just makes so much more sense that way.

Bye
Thanee

 

[hailstop]

We changed that even before the first encounter to the established 1-2-1-2 alternate for diagonal steps. It just makes so much more sense that way.

Bye
Thanee

Something you may not realize is that although the 1-2-1-2 is more accurate for those sections right on the diagonal...there are angles at which the 1-1-1-1 is more accurate. And it's roughly equal.