We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Raith5]

Deviations... from his character?

You mean the one who whined all the time, so much it was a oft commented on at the time? Or the one who quit trying after he failed to lift the X-wing? Or the one that gave into the dark side and maimed his father, the one he was trying to save, before pulling back at the end, you know, after the moment of weaknes?

Goodness, I have no idea where this concept of Luke you guys seem to have came from (maybe the books?), but the actions Luke takes in the OT are not those of the hero you seem to idolize.

My take on Luke is that his whole character arc of the the original series is from hot headed whiny farm boy to jedi knight. That is the whole point/core of that series for me. So I see some tension between The Return if the Jedi Luke and the Last Jedi Luke that needed far more explanation.

I think that is why so many people are up in arms (but I also think the dropped story lines from the Force Awakens is another whole suite of problems).

It seems to me that there is so much interesting stuff here happening off screen/between the films with Luke's dissolution as a Jedi/ Knights of Rhen/the rise of the First order visa vi the republic, and what we do see in the Last Jedi is just not a tedious side note to this interesting stuff.

 

[Morrus]

My take on Luke is that his whole character arc of the the original series is from hot headed whiny farm boy to jedi knight. That is the whole point/core of that series for me. So I see some tension between The Return if the Jedi Luke and the Last Jedi Luke that needed far more explanation.

He was weak to the very end. The Emperor said “give in to your hate!” and Luke was all “OK, duh”. He only survived because Vader had some remaining paternal instinct and saved him. Luke was never strong.

 

[cbwjm]

He was weak to the very end. The Emperor said “give in to your hate!” and Luke was all “OK, duh”. He only survived because Vader had some remaining paternal instinct and saved him. Luke was never strong.

He successfully resisted after the initial fall. Rather than succumb to the darkside and kill his father, Luke turned off his lightsaber and spared him. I think he was stronger than you give him credit for.

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[Morrus]

He successfully resisted after the initial fall. Rather than succumb to the darkside and kill his father, Luke turned off his lightsaber and spared him. I think he was stronger than you give him credit for.

Not executing your helpless dad isn’t strong. It’s the normal human condition. How many people do you know who have not executed their dads? I’m at a 100%:0% ratio myself!

Beating him to a pulp before deciding not to execute him? That’s pretty dark side.

 

[cbwjm]

Not executing your helpless dad isn’t strong. It’s the normal human condition. How many people do you know who have not executed their dads? I’m at a 100%:0% ratio myself!

Beating him to a pulp before deciding not to execute him? That’s pretty dark side.

How many people have a dad who is one of the top two in an empire of evil? And from memory, Luke only went off after his sister was threatened. Can't have Luke, maybe Leia would suffice.

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[billd91]

Not executing your helpless dad isn’t strong. It’s the normal human condition. How many people do you know who have not executed their dads? I’m at a 100%:0% ratio myself!

Beating him to a pulp before deciding not to execute him? That’s pretty dark side.

And yet, he did what his father "the chosen one" couldn't do - he had his epiphany and stepped back from the precipice before he was lost to it. Luke achieved his heroism in Return of the Jedi. You're not giving the character anywhere near enough credit.

That said, I have absolutely no problem with his idealism and drive crashing when his hopes for a New Jedi Order failed because he failed to protect his own nephew, his twin sister's boy, his best friend's son, his mentor's namesake, (how much more powerful emotional baggage can I pile on?) from a manipulative agent of the Dark Side and being witness the awful carnage he unleashed on other innocent people. That's far more information and justification than we got for Anakin going from a cheerful, helpful kid at the end of Phantom Menace to a whiney douche at the beginning of Attack of the Clones.

 

[Morrus]

And yet, he did what his father "the chosen one" couldn't do - he had his epiphany and stepped back from the precipice before he was lost to it.

He didn't do the one thing that one person had done. Sure, his father was weak.

You're not giving the character anywhere near enough credit.

How much credit should I give him? I mean, all anybody is offering is "he didn't kill his dad".

 

[RotGrub]

He was weak to the very end. The Emperor said “give in to your hate!” and Luke was all “OK, duh”. He only survived because Vader had some remaining paternal instinct and saved him. Luke was never strong.

I was hoping The Last Jedi would use the fact that he actually did give in the dark side during that encounter.
Perhaps fear of the dark side within would be a reason for his self isolation.

Of course Luke was strong enough to kick Vader in, he just didn't expect to be on the receiving end of the old mans on-going chain lighting. So to say he was never strong isn't true. Especially in Return of the Jedi.

Then again, Rey was probably soloing Rancors and Vader clones when she was 4 years old. To her, the dark side is really just a pointless machination of a toddler

 

[billd91]

How much credit should I give him? I mean, all anybody is offering is "he didn't kill his dad".

Between movies he went from just being impulsive, rushing off to help his friends (if only Lucas had looked at that behavior as more of a template for Anakin's descent) and getting smacked around for it to being a better planner (his layered contingency plans for rescuing Han) and being someone who walks into the effing lion's den in an attempt to do the impossible - redeem his old man - one of the galaxy's most notorious killers. He resists the temptation again and again, briefly embraces it, realizes what he's doing, and regains control, throwing away his weapon and leaving himself defenseless before his enemy. DAMN! That's some big deal heroic behavior right there. THAT'S why the theater erupted in cheers when I went to see it when it opened. Nobody ever erupted in cheers in other showings of the other movies I had been to before then - not when Luke blew up the Death Star, not when Wedge and Lando blew up Death Star 2, not when Han and company brought down the shield - but when Luke threw away his lightsaber and refused the final temptation.

So I can kind of see complaints about Luke's fall from grace. But I also see the tremendous emotional weight of failing Ben Solo and seeing him turn into Kylo Ren, so I can accept the change even though Luke achieved his hero's journey 30 years prior.

 

[Morrus]

He resists the temptation again and again, briefly embraces it, realizes what he's doing, and regains control, throwing away his weapon and leaving himself defenseless before his enemy.

That's an interesting way to view the same set of events. My version is -- he *immediately* gave into temptation and attacked the Emperor after, like, two sentences, was stopped by his dad, beat his dad to a pulp as a consequence, finally managing to resist executing his beaten dad lying helpless before him, before getting his ass totally kicked with trivial effort by the Emperor. Then his dad suddenly changed sides and saved his ass, otherwise he'd be dead.