Weak Elves? ...Why?

[LoneWolf23]

I've been pondering the relative strength of Elves today, and I came to a realisation...

Elves have a -2 to Constitution, granted. But no penalty to Strength. This means that both Humans and Elves can have Strength Scores of 18 with an unmodified lucky die roll.

And the -2 to Constitution only comes down to a -1 modifier to HP, Fort saves and concentration checks. Any of which can be compensated for by Feats, Class abilities or Items.

What does this mean for fighting Elves? Essentially, it means that an Elf does the same average damage with a Greataxe as a Human does. It also means that if he takes Feats like Great Fortitude, Endurance or Toughness, or merely puts a good roll into Constitution, the penalty is instantly compensated for.

So, what is the point of this thread? Namely, the following question: Why continue portraying Elves as Weaklings who rely on dexterity and long-range weaponry, when they're clearly able to stand toe-to-toe with any Human?

Come on, people, let's see some Greataxe wielding Elven Barbarians!

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

Because elf is just another word for girly man Actually why do you assume that everyone treats elves that way? I think it has more to do with how we were raised on elves. See LOTR and watch Legolas shoot his way to fame! IMC I tend to look at elves much as I tend to think of France during the stories of the 3 musketeers. Elves are foppish and distain getting blood on their finely made clothes. Does this mean that they never invoke fights or run away before other races? No it just means that elves believe that most creatures should be allowed to live in the way they see fit as long as others are not enslaved, killed in the process. Their CG alignment has them thinking that with ranged weapons and magic they can keep other races at arm's length. Humans can be so unpredictable but they know who is the superior race. Dwarves are downright nasty and pugnacious what with all the talk about killing this and reclaiming that. Gnomes tend to shy away and halfling live near the humans and so we tend to stay away on account of that. Are all elves this way? No! but I'm rambling so will shut up

 

[Xarlen]

Well, why aren't dwarves stronger?

Dwarves don't get any enhancement to Strenght. Come on. They spend all their days in tunnels, mining, forging, lifting stuff. They're like a race of body builders. So how come all THEY get is a +1 to Fort saves, +1 Hp, and concentration checks? Shouldn't they do more damage with an axe then a human?

If you answer this for dwarves, then just consider Elves the oposite.

 

[Sodalis]

elves, being able to grow so old and wise with experience would know that it is much easier to kill an opponent at range than to engage him in close quarters combat. for this- it is logical that they would rely more heavily on bows than the sword.

plus, if you look at the best martial arts masters, they do not rely on brute strength, but more on finesse. Tai Chi is the best example where you have fluidity in motion, and use your opponent's force against them.

Orcs- being the shortest lived race in DND should want the fastest possible way of doing things. they are rash and impulsive. that is why they rely heavily on str to get the job done. humans are next in the age category and they fall under the same faults. Gnomes, halflings and elves live for an obscene amount of time, and so do not depend on strength as much- but more on cunning, wit and intelligence. their manual dexterity is a byproduct of their not concentrating on str- and thus are more dainty. if you look at humans for comparison, the skinny ones are dexterous, while the bulky ones are coarse with jerky movements.

 

[Limper]

Because its a sacred cow for the company who wrote them.

 

[Bonedagger]

The Dwarfs in the MM have in average 66,7% more hitpoints than a MM Elf. And are 10 % stronger and have a 62,5 % higher constitution.

If these stats represent the common opposition you could expect from a member of these races then it is at least justified for a dwarf to call an elf a weakling

 

[Sodalis]

nice job bonedagger- now do those stats for humans v dwarves and dwarves v orcs.

i would do it myself- but i am at work

lets see if we can shed some light on the avg str and con and dex of the four main races

 

[Psychotic Jim]

Not all elves are long-bow wielding snipers. That's just a tendency ( or a bad stereotype depending on your view). Elves have some skill with melee weapons, such as the longsword. And not every elf has to restrict himself to that. I have a player who plays an elf who dumped his highest stat in Strength and wields a mercurial greatsword.

 

[Sodalis]

its funny that you succumbed to your own critique.

you said that it was a sad stereotype- but then come right back to say that you know players that "dump" their highest stat of str. Why did you use 'dump' instead of 'place'?

but i agree. my friend was a elven ranger. the dex helped him with a bow- but his highest stat was str and he was very effective- especially with the skill pts and the immune to sleep and secret dor detection.

in fact- on average- he did more damage than the grewataxe wielding 1/2 orc- because of the dual wield. hiting something two times for 10 pts each was much better than just once for 15

and this was more effective at higher lvl because BAB scales and AC levels off- and impr TWF makes him almost deadly...

 

[Bonedagger]

nice job bonedagger- now do those stats for humans v dwarves and dwarves v orcs.

i would do it myself- but i am at work

lets see if we can shed some light on the avg str and con and dex of the four main races

Why not

Average from stats for races in the MM)

Dwarf: Str 11 Dex 10 Con 13 hp 5

Elf: Str 10 Dex 13 Con 8 hp 3

Human?: Str 11 Dex 11 Con 11 hp 4

Orc: Str 15 Dex 10 Con 11 hp 4

No reason to discriminate the small ones...

Gnome: Str 8 Dex 10 Con 12 hp 5

Halfling: Str 8 Dex 13 Con 10 hp 4