Weapon Balance - A Statistical Analysis

Alex319

First Post
There are of course numerous threads in these forums and the WotC forums about weapon balance, but as far as I know, nobody has actually tried to do a statistical analysis to correlate the different variables associated with each weapon with the damage done - and then to use that information to determine whether there are any weapons that are overpowered or underpowered.

My first objective was to estimate a formula that reproduces the existing weapons' damage values - in order to determine about what tradeoffs between different weapon features and higher damage values the designers thought to be balanced. What I did was I made a list of all the melee weapons in the game and coded each one according to the following criteria:

+3 Prof (P): The weapon has a +3 proficiency bonus rather than a +2.

Superior (S): The weapon is a superior weapon.

Two-Hand (T): The weapon is a two-handed weapon.

Light (L): The weapon is a weapon in the light blade category.

High Crit (H): The weapon is high crit.

Reach (R): The weapon is a reach weapon.

Additionally, I made the following changes to simplify the analysis and get more reliable results:

1. I did not include simple weapons in the analysis. I made this decision because many of the simple weapons are not balanced (e.g. the club is exactly the same as the mace except it has a lower damage) and this was throwing off some of the results. Since simple weapons are rarely used by PCs in combat (every class that does not have military weapon proficiency is a class that does not use melee attacks as its main attack powers) this does not normally unbalance the game.

2. I did not include either the versatile or off-hand properties in the analysis. This was because these keywords were extremely closely correlated with other properties (e.g. only one weapon is light but not off-hand, and none are off-hand but not light, and all but two weapons are exactly one of versatile, light, or two-handed), and this throws off the results of the analysis. Versatile should not have any relationship with damage if the weapons were balanced (because it is rare that a PC will actually want to switch between one handed and two handed weapon styles mid-combat), and off-hand is almost the same thing as light.

The results of the regression analysis gave a formula as follows:

Expected Damage = 5.52 - 1.22P + 1.03S + 1.52T - 0.86L - 0.87H - 1.74R

where the variables are each 1 if the weapon has that property and 0 if not.

Now in order to determine whether any weapons are overpowered (or underpowered) we need to look at the following two questions.

1. Are there any weapons that have damages significantly above or below the above formula?

2. Does the above formula actually represent balanced trade-offs for the given abilities? (For example if high crit were actually worth 2 points on the [W], then all high crit weapons would be way overpowered since they're only "paying" 0.8 points to get something worth 2. This turns out not to be the case, see below.)

The answer to question 1 is NO. It is easy to calculate the "residuals" - the amount of damage above or below that predicted by the formula - for each weapon. The highest is the greataxe with 0.34, and the lowest is the greatsword with -0.32.

The answer to question 2 is harder to figure out, but let's look at each one individually:

+3 Prof (P, -1.22): An additional +1 to the proficiency bonus means about a 10 percent increased chance of hitting (going from 50 to 55 percent), so a 1.22 point reduction in damage is balanced if the overall damage done before is around 12. At low levels, this is reasonable (say an average of 5 for the [W], then +4 for the stat bonus, +1 for magic, and possibly a little extra from feats or the power used). At higher levels damages will be higher, but the multiplier on the [W] gets higher, so it balances out.

Superior (S, 1.03): Using a superior rather than a normal weapon costs one feat, so we need to see if this feat is balanced. An appropriate point of comparison for feats which give extra damage is Weapon Focus, which gives one additional point of damage per tier. Getting a superior weapon gives about one additional point of damage per [W], which is roughly comparable.

Two-Hand (T, 1.52): The cost of using a two-handed weapon is that you can't use a shield in the other hand, thus eliminating a chance to raise your AC by 2 (assuming you had heavy shield proficiency.) Since attack bonuses are generally more important than defense bonuses (since you can choose where to target your attacks, while if you have a very high AC the opponents can often just attack someone else) a +1.5 per [W] to damage for 2 less AC seems like a reasonable trade-off.

Light (L, -0.86): The main reason it matters if a weapon is a light weapon is for use with the Rogue's sneak attack. Figuring out whether the given reduction in damage is the right amount would lead into a discussion of the balance of Rogue in general, which is beyond the scope of this post.

High Crit (H, -0.87): Assuming a 50% chance of hitting, 10% of hits will be criticals. This means that high crit, which adds +1[W] per tier to the critical damage, adds an average of 0.1[W] damage per tier to each hit. Since [W] is usually around 5, 0.1[W] is around 0.5, which means that high crit weapons are not usually a good choice at heroic tier because you are giving up almost a full point of damage (or even more if you're using a multiple [W] attack power) for something worth around half of that. On the other hand high crit weapons can become much more useful at paragon and epic tiers because they do more damage and you also have more ways to increase your critical range (e.g. with the epic weapon mastery feats.)

Reach (R, -1.74): The extra value of a reach weapon depends entirely upon positioning and tactics, and will be significantly different for each character and party, and thus would be impossible to calculate here. (For example defenders would have much less use for reach weapons as they are normally in the front lines and thus adjacent to the enemy anyways.)

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The overall conclusion of this analysis is that there is no weapon that is obviously overpowered or underpowered. The deviation from the computed formula is at most a few tenths of a point in either direction, and there would not even be a way to fine-tune it more as [W] values can be adjusted at best in 0.5 unit increments. The formula itself seems like it captures the relative game value of the different weapon effects reasonably accurately, although of course the exact values would depend on other aspects of the character and his battle strategy. So, overall, we have a system in which different weapons are useful for different characters, and no weapon is clearly more (or less) powerful in all situations.
 

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Most cool. I tried to do something similar, but what I don't know about stats could fill libraries...

If I understand it correctly, it looks like the great ax, long spear, long sword, and Bastard sword are the farthest out on the "best" side and the greatsword and glaive are the farthest out on the "worst" side. Sounds close.

It would be interesting to see what happened if you included the simple weapons as another catagory.

Mark
 

Nice article! I liked the simplicity of your formula, and expect to use this information myself.

Good work!

No, I just hope you're correct...
 

It would be interesting to see what happened if you included the simple weapons as another catagory.

I think it's actually most useful to use the military weapons as a baseline for comparing simple weapons. So, one just uses the constants given above. By that metric (rounded slightly for ease of grouping):

* Quarterstaff is at the bottom of the barrel at ~ -2.5.
* Club, sickle, greatclub, and scythe are next at about -2.
* Morningstar is about -1.5.
* Dagger, mace, spear are about -1 (with dagger the best at a mere -0.94).

But the caveats Alex319 gives apply here too — I'd really rather a greatclub to a morningstar because 2d4 is much more consistent than 1d10. And daggers are better than indicated because hey, you can throw it if you need to — let alone the versatile and off-hand keywords.
 

Brehobit, while the comparison of the weapons you list is true, the residual values do not tell us where this extra pplus or minus comes from. There may be another variable to add to the regression equation that would account for these residuals. In this case, I am thinking it is base weapon die (d4, d6, d8. d10, d12) and possible a power function of this variable given that it is not a linear relationship, though that is only a hypothosis.

Alex's basic supposition is that no weapons are inheirently better or worse than any other. He could add additional variables to create a better model but the best regressions are the ones that predict the best with the fewest factors involved (IMHO).

Cool stuff and I wonder if the game designerns did something similar or if it was simply luck?

discfor1
 

a +1.5 per [W] to damage for 2 less AC seems like a reasonable trade-off.

Your math is probably good, I'm poor with math so I'll take faith in you.

But please can someone (preferably the OP as I'd like to know the basic thought process here) explain to me how this seems like a "reasonable trade-off" ?
To me it feels like giving up alot of defence for very little offence.
Very unbalanced in favor of the shield user IMHO.

Sure I'm a bit biased towards two handed weaponry, and one of those weirdoes that wants to push my fighter into a striker role :p
I'll admit to be a little bit of a "powergamer" but I wouldnt say I'm a hardcore optimizer.

I certainly would like to see balance and not broken overpoweredness.
And I'd like some more meat on the bones before I go suggesting houserules to my gaming mates to fix this supposed imbalance that might just be in my head due to my own inexperience with the 4e system (or any AD&D system for that matter)

Anyway my thoughts on this:

AC (and reflex) has sort of a boolean feel to them. it's either "get hit or don't get hit".
The scale it works on is relativly small, I cant cover all variables but I ballpark it at 10-35 (10 is minimum I belive and 35 is a lvl 30 generic person in mundane plate and heavy shield unless I'm mistaken)
Any bonus here, even one that seems minor, like +2 will have a significant effect on your character.

HP (and thus damage) works in a different way.
It's not "live or die" but HP must be sequentially hacked off until it reaches 0. and the amount of HP can easilly reach 100+ when faced with several monsters or even one big nasty monster in the higher levels.
I dont have exact numbers here but I'm sure its a much bigger scale than the AC one.

A bonus on this scale must be quite large before it gives any substansial effect.
+2 doesnt seem to cut it to make up for a loss of 2 AC/Reflex, and its not even a stable +2 bonus, its a possible +2 bonus since it's just a bigger damage dice that might still roll poorly.

Am I overlooking something ?
Or is it just a case of "grass looks greener" ?
 

Your math is probably good, I'm poor with math so I'll take faith in you.

But please can someone (preferably the OP as I'd like to know the basic thought process here) explain to me how this seems like a "reasonable trade-off" ?
To me it feels like giving up alot of defence for very little offence.
Very unbalanced in favor of the shield user IMHO.
My gut feeling is that two-handed vs shield would be a bit more balanced if you let two-handed weapons benefit from the same +1 damage that versatile weapons get, and changed that +1 into a +2 and +3 at paragon and epic.

(This would also solve the slight oddity of a bastard sword being a better two-handed sword than a greatsword.)
 

First of all, great spreadsheet.
Second, to balance the greatsword and the glaive it would be enough to give them 0,5 extra damage.
The glaive is easy, from 2d4 to 1d10, but the greatsword? 2d5? 1d4+1d6?
 

My gut feeling is that two-handed vs shield would be a bit more balanced if you let two-handed weapons benefit from the same +1 damage that versatile weapons get, and changed that +1 into a +2 and +3 at paragon and epic.

(This would also solve the slight oddity of a bastard sword being a better two-handed sword than a greatsword.)
1.52 damage per die is not nothing - by a long shot. The lower AC has an impact in 10% of all attacks, so if these attacks deal 15 damage a round (on a hit), then even if you attack with just 1[W] you're fine. If you're dealing more than 1[W] on average, (which you will) then you can take more and still be balanced. This is being optimistic in favor of the two-handed weapon, since a shield only raises your AC and ref, whereas attacks may come in on all defenses.

In other words, if you can avoid being hit too often, then the two-hander will have a fairly large advantage. If you're being attacked on your fortitude or will, you might as well take a two handed weapon. If you're getting hit a lot, pick a shield. This isn't broken - it's obvious - when you're not being attacked a lot, your defense is less important.
 

First of all, great spreadsheet.
Second, to balance the greatsword and the glaive it would be enough to give them 0,5 extra damage.
The glaive is easy, from 2d4 to 1d10, but the greatsword? 2d5? 1d4+1d6?
You can give it high-crit.

In any case, I think it's a mistake to balance weapons like this - basically this spreadsheet presumes there is some damage value related with each property, which is tricky. The properties have situational values, and it's possible to switch weapons. Further, there are feats and power-related issues...

So, it's an interesting spreadsheet, but I'm not making policy choices based solely on it ;-)
 

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