Weapon finesse - big can o' worms here

[pbd]

From some earlier discussions, there weer alot of people, myself included, that thought dexterity should more widely applicable as affecting attack bonus. These were big ugly threads, some of which may even have gotten closed due to crapulence. I am not trying to re-open that can o' worms here, just starting a discussion.

Basically, assuming that for many weapons, it may be more realistic to use dex modifier, rather than strength, to modify to hit bonus when properly trained.

In that vein, I am thinking of ways to make weapon finesse more broadly usable. So would it be broken to allow weapon finesse to function for all one-handed weapons?

 

[Coredump]

Even based on your initial assumptions, I don't think it makes sense for all one handed weapons.
Weapon finesse for: heavy mace, battle axe, flail, trident, dwarven waraxe, bastard sword, etc.
So I don't think it passes the 'common sense' test.

As for being 'broken'; Dex is already a very important stat, weapon finess makes it more important. Mechanics wise this is countered a bit by only having less damaging weapons be finessable.

It has already been 'buffed' to include all appropriate weapons (instead of just one), I don't see a need/benefit for including *all* one handed weapons.

 

[DanMcS]

I think it would become too good to be a single feat at that point. As written now, weapon finesse is a nice balance between the 3.0 version, which was too narrow to be worth a feat slot, and making dexterity overly applicable. Applying to all weapons would mean the character doesn't give anything up, compared to weapon focus (for instance), where he gets the bonus only with one weapon.

To make it work as a broadly-applicable feat, you need to add another restriction to it, I think. Maybe, it works with all light weapons, and all one-handed weapons which are the character's strength -10 lbs or less. So a character with a 14 strength could apply it to one-handed weapons that weigh 4 pounds or less, opening up the club, shortspear, longsword, scimitar, and trident for him. Then be sure to enforce a "no two-handed use for bonus damage while finessing" rule on all one-handed weapons, like the rapier.

 

[pbd]

Coredump,

Yes I agree, it probably should not be applicable to all one-handed weapons (I was posting fast and thought of that but didn't include it), but I think a very good arguement can be made for adding more weapons to the list.

Maybe reword to say "should more than just light weapons, rapier, and spiked chain be finessable?"

The arguement of making dex too good doesn't hold too well, str would still be important as dex doesn't add to damage (prestige classess aside). A character that wanted to really be able to dish it out would still want to go the high str route, but increasing the list of finessable weapons, besides having some merit in realism, would make the "quick" fighter more viable.

DanMcS,

I like the idea of making a weight restriction. That makes str still important, but I think str -10 lbs would a little stringent; a 10 str swashbuckler wouldn't be able to finesse ANY weapons. Maybe str/2 lbs

 

[beepeearr]

I allow weapon finesse to be used with all light weapons or weapons with a natural threat range of 18-20. I hate specifying specific weapons though, so I came up with a set definition of which weapons could be finessed.

I know spiked chain wouldn't be finessable using these rules, which was intended since I theat both whips and spiked chains as melee weapons which can be "thrown" for a ranged attack out to a maximum distance of one range increment. Just my two cents.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Really, all this does is open up another part of the martial weapon category to finesse fighters. Right now, a finesse fighter will typically use a light weapon--most of which are 1d6 19-20 x2 or 1d6 x3 weapons. Their alternatives are the spiked chain (2 handed, finessable), and the rapier which at 1d6 18-20/x2 is balanced vis a vis the longsword, battle axe, warhammer by the same logic that balances the heavy pick and scimitar against those weapons (and the logic that balances the falchion and scythe against the greatsword and greataxe).

So, if the designers are right and 1d6 18-20/x2 is as good as 1d8 /x3 or 1d8 19-20/x2 then the expansion of the feat won't materially alter the game balance. (You can even look at the bastard sword or dwarven waraxe finessability vis a vis the elven thinblade). The only thing you really need to decide is whether you want maces and battle axes to be finessable.

 

[Kynn]

You could make Improved Weapon Finesse, which lets you use one-handed weapons.

(Writing this up as a feat with appropriate prerequisites is left as an exercise for the reader.)

 

[DanMcS]

So, if the designers are right and 1d6 18-20/x2 is as good as 1d8 /x3 or 1d8 19-20/x2 then the expansion of the feat won't materially alter the game balance. (You can even look at the bastard sword or dwarven waraxe finessability vis a vis the elven thinblade). The only thing you really need to decide is whether you want maces and battle axes to be finessable.

Mechanically, the weapons are balanced versus each other, that's not really the question. Weapon finesse is balanced versus other feats by virtue of NOT applying to everything.

If it applies to all one-handed weapons with no restrictions, it is vastly better than, for instance, Weapon Focus, which gives a +1 to-hit with one weapon. You wouldn't take weapon finesse unless your dex bonus were at least +1 better than your str bonus, so weapon finesse would then effectively give at least +1 to-hit with every one-handed or light weapon.

It's also a restriction in that a weapon finesse fighter can't use it with just any weapon they find as loot.

 

[shmoo2]

Basically, assuming that for many weapons, it may be more realistic to use dex modifier, rather than strength, to modify to hit bonus when properly trained.

In that vein, I am thinking of ways to make weapon finesse more broadly usable. So would it be broken to allow weapon finesse to function for all one-handed weapons?

Alternately, you could house rule that DEX is added to BAB to hit in melee in general. STR still adds to damage.

This would obviate concerns about Weapon Finesse being balanced with other feats.

 

[DanMcS]

Alternately, you could house rule that DEX is added to BAB to hit in melee in general. STR still adds to damage.

This would obviate concerns about Weapon Finesse being balanced with other feats.

This is known as the "Old WoD/Exalted" solution, and lead directly to characters focusing on Dexterity to the exclusion of all else.