Weapon Focus "unarmed strike" counts when making a grapple check?

[Agamon]

You're better off creating a grappler that is competent in other ways when he can't grapple. I've seen that done well a number of times.

 

[Zephiel7]

You're better off creating a grappler that is competent in other ways when he can't grapple. I've seen that done well a number of times.

Interesting. Could you explain please?

 

[Flynn]

One question though: What is the point of building a grappler? You can't initiate a grapple against roughly one third - one half of the creatures in the monster manual (due to size constraints). Anyone on this? Thanks.

I've only seen people build a grappler for one reason: to take out spellcasters. They aren't aiming for monsters, they're aiming for those pesky NPCs that chucks spells at them and do great damage to the party. The grappler equalizes that force, removing it from play so the rest of the party might succeed in dealing with other aspects of the encounter then come help finish off the spellcaster when there is no more support to be had for our poor little NPC bad guy.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[Legildur]

I've only seen people build a grappler for one reason: to take out spellcasters. They aren't aiming for monsters, they're aiming for those pesky NPCs that chucks spells at them and do great damage to the party. The grappler equalizes that force, removing it from play so the rest of the party might succeed in dealing with other aspects of the encounter then come help finish off the spellcaster when there is no more support to be had for our poor little NPC bad guy.

I disagree with your first couple of statements (although grappling monks do excel at taking down spell casters), but agree with the rest.

I played a monk once that grappled a vampire and basically held him in check while the rest of the party dealt with the other threats. Of course, as soon as he was outnumbered, he turned gaseous and fled, but my efforts probably prevented a TPK.

In another game, the monk PC played by another character has now successfully grappled a mind flayer and lived and a couple of nights ago an Ogre Magi. He only has (at 14th level) an 18 Str, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, and the Improved Grapple feat to work with.

Obviously Enlarge Person would even the odds substantially against some of the bigger opponents.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I played a monk once that grappled a vampire and basically held him in check while the rest of the party dealt with the other threats. Of course, as soon as he was outnumbered, he turned gaseous and fled, but my efforts probably prevented a TPK.

Why didn't he turn gaseous as soon as you grappled him (before he was out numbered)?

 

[Legildur]

Interesting. Could you explain please?

The key here is to look at his bonus feats and perhaps what rules books you are allowed to use.

I build I'm fond of has the following feats by 6th level:

Unarmed Strike (monk bonus)
Stunning Fist (monk bonus)
Improved Grapple (1st)
Dodge (human bonus)
Combat Reflexes (monk 2nd bonus)
Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) (3rd)
Improved Trip (monk 6th bonus)
Weakening Touch (6th) (Complete Warrior)

He gets 6 stunning fist attempts per day. Typically these are near useless against melee type opponents who usually have good Fort saves, so instead, he relies on Weakening Touch (which uses a Stunning Fist attempt) to apply a -6 penalty to the opponent's strength for 1 minute (no save, but only to those creatures subject to criticals). Not only does this reduce damage received, but also makes subsequent grapple or trip attempts more likely to succeed.

Improved Grapple's benefits are obvious, if situational. Just don't do it when the enemy have rogues that can stab you whlst you are denied your Dex bonus to AC.

Wpn Focus (us) is almost mandatory given the med BAB of monks.

Improved Trip is great (wield a kama so you can drop it on the counter-trip). But I also have a soft spot for Improved Disarm for a monk wielding a quarterstaff - he gets a pretty good opposed check with it being a two-handed weapon. But anything you can disarm can probably be grappled unless the situation dictates otherwise.

Another option is to spend a feat to take a reach weapon - generally can't use it in a flurry, so not a favourite option of mine, but useful at the beginning of combat for the AOOs (and remember that you have Combat Reflexes).

Don't forget to carry shuriken... always useful given they are a free action to draw and can be used as part of a flurry.

So, this guy can deal damage (unarmed strike), grapple, stun/weaken and trip reasonably well. And has some limited range capability (never hurts to carry a sling and bullets).

 

[Legildur]

Why didn't he turn gaseous as soon as you grappled him (before he was out numbered)?

I guess because he thought he could pin me and suck blood. It was a very tough grapple where neither grappler got the upper hand.

 

[frankthedm]

Why didn't he turn gaseous as soon as you grappled him (before he was out numbered)?

Going for the pin to drain the monk's Con can round right tasty to a vampire.

 

[Darklone]

You're better off creating a grappler that is competent in other ways when he can't grapple. I've seen that done well a number of times.

Best grappling build with other competencies:
Monk1/DruidX or perhaps 2 levels of monk... the UA variant druid with monk abilities is good as well, but you'll miss the bonus feats.

Get all grappling feats mentioned above and use them wildshaped as some huge beasty (either Animal Growth or Enlarge Person works on you!). I've had a druid wildshaped as an giant eagle (animal, not the MM version) grapple a dragon in midflight ... and he ripped the dragon to pieces!

 

[Zephiel7]

The key here is to look at his bonus feats and perhaps what rules books you are allowed to use.

I build I'm fond of has the following feats by 6th level:

Unarmed Strike (monk bonus)
Stunning Fist (monk bonus)
Improved Grapple (1st)
Dodge (human bonus)
Combat Reflexes (monk 2nd bonus)
Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) (3rd)
Improved Trip (monk 6th bonus)
Weakening Touch (6th) (Complete Warrior)

He gets 6 stunning fist attempts per day. Typically these are near useless against melee type opponents who usually have good Fort saves, so instead, he relies on Weakening Touch (which uses a Stunning Fist attempt) to apply a -6 penalty to the opponent's strength for 1 minute (no save, but only to those creatures subject to criticals). Not only does this reduce damage received, but also makes subsequent grapple or trip attempts more likely to succeed.

Improved Grapple's benefits are obvious, if situational. Just don't do it when the enemy have rogues that can stab you whlst you are denied your Dex bonus to AC.

Wpn Focus (us) is almost mandatory given the med BAB of monks.

Improved Trip is great (wield a kama so you can drop it on the counter-trip). But I also have a soft spot for Improved Disarm for a monk wielding a quarterstaff - he gets a pretty good opposed check with it being a two-handed weapon. But anything you can disarm can probably be grappled unless the situation dictates otherwise.

Another option is to spend a feat to take a reach weapon - generally can't use it in a flurry, so not a favourite option of mine, but useful at the beginning of combat for the AOOs (and remember that you have Combat Reflexes).

Don't forget to carry shuriken... always useful given they are a free action to draw and can be used as part of a flurry.

So, this guy can deal damage (unarmed strike), grapple, stun/weaken and trip reasonably well. And has some limited range capability (never hurts to carry a sling and bullets).

Interesting...would he better at battlefield control than a fighter with the same feats? ( I mean improved grapple/disarm/trip )