Weapon Proficiency Question

[DracoSuave]

Are we sure about this ruling? Regardless of its groups, Urgosh is a superior weapon. PHB reads - "You can learn to use a superior weapon by taking the Weapon Proficiency feat."

Very sure.

 

[Thundershield]

The Superior weapon thing doesn't bother me. It's a racial feat, so should be better than equivalent tier feats at that tier. But at the same time, it's a heroic feat, it doesn't -have- to be awesome beyond heroic tier.

Thing is, characters who hand-to-hand fight have martial weapon proficiency.

But more importantly, those feats are hardly unique anymore. Eberron gives Halflings one and Drow one, and they work under the Superior+2 banner, rather than the Martial+2/3/4.

I look at it this way. Don't you think they introduced Superior Hammers, Axes, and Spears in AV -specificly- so that DWT and ES can actually -do- something other than be a featswap in epic tier?

While I do see the logic here, it fades at Paragon tier and is mostly gone at Epic. It's debatable if an epic Dwarf is better at using his weapon of choice compared to the Human Fighter who picked Weapon Proficiency (Execution Axe) and Weapon Focus (Axes).

That's why I've changed these "weapon affinity" feats to function the way Goliath Greatweapon Prowess does (no Superior weapon proficiency, but instead a +2/3/4 feat bonus to damage). This means that no matter what, the Dwarf Fighter will be better at using the Execution Axe as his "racial Weapon Focus" is better than what the Human can get, thus outlining the racial affinity.

Also, it means that superior weapons stay less commonplace as it's less of a no-brainer whether you want to invest in the Weapon Proficiency feat.

 

[Parlan]

That's why I've changed these "weapon affinity" feats to function the way Goliath Greatweapon Prowess does (no Superior weapon proficiency, but instead a +2/3/4 feat bonus to damage).

I thought Goliath Greatweapon Prowess also granted proficiency with all two handed melee weapons. No?

 

[IanB]

I thought Goliath Greatweapon Prowess also granted proficiency with all two handed melee weapons. No?

It specifies martial only.

 

[DracoSuave]

While I do see the logic here, it fades at Paragon tier and is mostly gone at Epic. It's debatable if an epic Dwarf is better at using his weapon of choice compared to the Human Fighter who picked Weapon Proficiency (Execution Axe) and Weapon Focus (Axes).

That's why I've changed these "weapon affinity" feats to function the way Goliath Greatweapon Prowess does (no Superior weapon proficiency, but instead a +2/3/4 feat bonus to damage). This means that no matter what, the Dwarf Fighter will be better at using the Execution Axe as his "racial Weapon Focus" is better than what the Human can get, thus outlining the racial affinity.

Also, it means that superior weapons stay less commonplace as it's less of a no-brainer whether you want to invest in the Weapon Proficiency feat.

Are superior weapons -supposed- to be 'rare' tho? Do remember that Goliath Greatweapon's extra damage is a) balanced against Weapon Focus, and b) never applies to superior weapons.

Now, granted, in your system, Dwarven Avenger is good but not omg +2Wis+Mordenkrad+2damage GO. However, other characters i.e. anything martial are a lock for being not a dwarf. +1 damage over-all per hit < the -1 to hit that Dwarves take with Fighter, Barbarian, etc. DWT giving them exotic weapons was a good balance point, where they could be a martial class and -capable- at it.

Without that, you simply won't realisticly see Dwarf Axe-Fighter, or Dwarf Hammerbarian all that often. Instead, you'll see nothing but Dwarf Laser Cleric, Dwarf Warlock, Dwarf Shaman and Dwarf Druid. Now, this might be what you want, but don't be surprised if you -never- see Axebeard in your games again.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Dwarves and Eladrin have fluff that defines them as good fighters, but they lack the STR bonus of Dragonborn, Goliaths, Minotaurs and Warforged. To compensate, they have feats that improve their melee abilities and make it feasible to play them in those iconic roles.

WRT these feats granting access to around a half dozen weapons: true, but you only use one at a time (shut up, ranger), and can normally only afford one or at most two to be reasonably enchanted. Gaining 6 proficiencies is a bit better than gaining 1, but not that much better.

 

[Goumindong]

This means that no matter what, the Dwarf Fighter will be better at using the Execution Axe as his "racial Weapon Focus" is better than what the Human can get, thus outlining the racial affinity.

No, he won't. He will have the same damage bonus but be suffering a penalty of 1 to attack.

The dwarf fighter that starts with 18 str is the human fighter that starts with 20. +1 str=+1 att and dmg. Negating the dwarven weapon proficiency bonus.

The real difference between the dwarf and the human RAW at this point is

Human: +1 attack, +1 dmg paragon, +2 dmg epic
Dwarf: +1 feat

Is a feat worth +1 to attack, and 1 dmg at paragon and another at epic? You might not think so compared to any other advantages that each get, but that is what the trade off is before you go and look at other feats.

If the human chooses not to take weapon focus they will only be 1 damage behind the dwarf with an advantage of +1 attack for the entire game.

fake edit: don't believe me? lets examine 2 fighters at lvl 2 one dwarven, one human, each wielding a waraxe

Human: 20 str, +5 str,+2 prof, +1 weapon, +1 lvl, +1 class = 10
Dwarf: 18 str, +4 str,+2 prof, +1 weapon +1 lvl, +1 class = 9

Dmg:
Human: 1d12+ 1 feat+ 5 str+ 1 weapon = 1d12+7
Dwarf: 1d12+ 2 feat + 4 str + 1 weapon = 1d12+7

 

[Thundershield]

No, he won't. He will have the same damage bonus but be suffering a penalty of 1 to attack.

Who's talking about Fighters? I was thinking a Dwarf Avenger with a greataxe.

No, seriously: He'll be better than others with the same stats and of the same level, is what I meant. After all, not all classes use the same stats for attack and damage.

 

[DracoSuave]

Who's talking about Fighters? I was thinking a Dwarf Avenger with a greataxe.

No, seriously: He'll be better than others with the same stats and of the same level, is what I meant. After all, not all classes use the same stats for attack and damage.

He'll do more damage with a normal power use. But... he won't be getting the mobility of the Elf Avenger, or the pure BURLY BRAWL of the Deva.

It's a trade.

 

[Goumindong]

Who's talking about Fighters? I was thinking a Dwarf Avenger with a greataxe.

You are

This means that no matter what, the Dwarf Fighter will be better at using the Execution Axe as his "racial Weapon Focus" is better than what the Human can get, thus outlining the racial affinity.