Weapon ranges

[kramis]

I was wondering if anyone else has a problem with the weapon range system? This has become a bigger issue now in dragonstar, but I think it also applies to all ranged weapons.

Why isn't it easier to shoot someone with an arrow who is ten feet away compare to 100 feet away for a long bow? This seems a bit silly.

It's all based on the premise that ranged weapons that CAN fire farther are autmatically more accurate at greater distances. It seems like distance accurancy should almost be independent of weapon range, at least at close ranges. I can see at longer ranges making an argument for certain weapons being more accurate for certain stability reasons.

Anyone else feel the same way and have suggestions?

 

[Pax]

I was wondering if anyone else has a problem with the weapon range system? This has become a bigger issue now in dragonstar, but I think it also applies to all ranged weapons.

Why isn't it easier to shoot someone with an arrow who is ten feet away compare to 100 feet away for a long bow? This seems a bit silly.

It's all based on the premise that ranged weapons that CAN fire farther are autmatically more accurate at greater distances. It seems like distance accurancy should almost be independent of weapon range, at least at close ranges. I can see at longer ranges making an argument for certain weapons being more accurate for certain stability reasons.

Anyone else feel the same way and have suggestions?

It is easier to shoot someone 10 feet away than someone 100 feet away -- Point Blank Shot feat.

Also, you DO realise, the range increment listed in the PHB isn't the ULTIMATE maximum range, right? You can go to 5 range increments for thrown, and 10 range increments for propeleld (i.e. bows, etc) ranged weapons.

So the Longbowbreaks it's range down into ten steps of 120 feet each (IIRC).

 

[kramis]

Yes I know that about the increments. That's part of my point. Why does the -2 only come into play at 120 feet for longbows? Waht I'm saying is this -2 should start a lot closer for all ranged weapons and not be dependent on the "ultimate" range of the weapon.

I think maybe range increments should be the same for all ranged weapons period, with maybe a small modifier, and only the ultimate range be different.

 

[Felix]

I've never shot bows or crossbows, so they could be different.

But,

I went to the range the other day with my 9mm, AR, .22 rifle, and my 20g shotgun.

The AR, at 50 yards, had a nice shot group in the upper right quad.

The .22, at 25 yards, had a nice shot group in the right half.

The 9mm, at 10 yards, had a nice shot group in the center.

I didn't have the time to shoot skeet that day.

All of the shot groups had about the same diameter.

The AR (longbow?) was simply more accurate at a longer range. If I had taken the AR to the pistol (hand crossbow?) station, all of my shots would have been through the 10. The pistol at 50 yards would have been a joke.

The .22 rifle (shortbow?), while known for being a target rifle, cannot fire at long distances because the round is so small that it gets affected very easily by outside forces. It doesn't have the inertia that the 7.62 AR round posesses; perhaps this same force is at work on the crossbow/shortbow/longbow arrows?

Each firearm should have its own range increments, and have penalties assessed when transgressing each increment. Otherwise, a sniper-rifle type bow would be wildly inaccurate at the range for which it was made to shoot.

 

[kramis]

thanks

That's actually a nice practical answer that makes me feel a bit better about the system the way it is. Thanks. Still think your AR would be more accurate at 10 ft than 30 yards though.

 

[Felix]

No problemo


But, if you *really* wanted to make shooting at long distances hard, remember that any inaccuracies in the aiming within one increment are compounded upon in the following increments. Chaos effect being what it is, and all. Perhaps an attack roll is called for at each range incriment with penalties to each roll increasing.

Shooting at a target (AC 20) 201 yards away (range inc. of 50 yards)
Att. roll for 50 yards must hit AC 20
Att. roll for 100 yards must hit AC 20 (at -2)
Att. roll for 150 yards must hit AC 20 (at -4)
Att. roll for 200 yards must hit AC 20 (at -6)
Then you can attack the bad guy AC 20 at a -6.

If at any point the roll is too low, the archer missed.

How's that for influencing your PCs to be melee-types?

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Mind you I know a LITTLE about bows. And Felix has already expounded very well on this as far as bullets go.

The range increment is based in part on the projectile and the bow.

A crossbow uses bolts, which are shorter and heavier than arrows, thus drop faster and tumble more readily, decreasing accuracy and range.

Long bows are the most accurate in part because of a longer arrow shaft than a short bow or crossbow, something that isn't considered in 3E for simplicity's sake. They also have an increased draw that means that energy is transfered from the string to the arrow for a longer time, and in a smoother fashion. The same way rifles are more accurate than pistols because the bullet is in the barrel longer, the arrow is on the bow longer.

 

[Zenon]

The only thing I even thought was wrong with ranged wepaons in D&D is that unless you are actually running (x4 movement), there is no penalty applied for target movement at range.

It's easy to be accurate with a stationary target, but much harder to lead a moving target (unless you're using autofire with tracers ). If the targets at the range were moving erracticly, I suspect your shot grouping would not have been as nice.

I just let it go though. It's just a game and it never claims to accurately represent real life.

Does Spycraft address anything like this? I don't have it it check.

 

[Felix]

Zenon:

Naturally. At moving targets to hell with shot groups. The main idea of firing at moving targets is to make them take cover so they have reduced maneuverability and can't fire at you so your buddies can move around and shoot; something else that is not taken into 3e mechanics.

But, like I said, I didn't have time to shoot skeet that day.