weapons as implements

[eriktheguy]

If you are using a weapon as an implement, such as a sorcerer's dagger or a warlock's pact blade, can you use other abilities that require you to wield a light blade when making arcane implement attacks. For example can a sorcerer multiclassed to rogue perform a sneak attack when using a dagger as an implement? Does a warlock using a pact blade to cast spells gain a +1 bonus on opportunity attacks with a light blade? I'm not sure what the answer is according to RAW but I would be willing to let this go as a house rule in my campaigns just for its creativity.

 

[Eldorian]

If you are using a weapon as an implement, such as a sorcerer's dagger or a warlock's pact blade, can you use other abilities that require you to wield a light blade when making arcane implement attacks. For example can a sorcerer multiclassed to rogue perform a sneak attack when using a dagger as an implement?

Yes. Mine does this once per encounter. Also, a rogue multiclassed sorcerer gains a +1 to hit from rogue weapon talent when casting sorcerer spells with his dagger, and can sneak attack on those spells.

Does a warlock using a pact blade to cast spells gain a +1 bonus on opportunity attacks with a light blade?

Huh?

 

[Oompa]

Huh?

A pact blade is simply a light blade, so it is simply a magic weapon that can function as a implement. So the moment you use the pact blade (dagger example) in a melee attack you only gain the bonusses as if using a magic weapon, and not as a implement..

 

[CapnZapp]

In other words, I don't think there are any way for a wizard or warlock to get a magic weapon and use it effectively as both a weapon and an implement.

My criteria for effective use: must be able to use Con/Int/Cha for attacks and damage both when used as a weapon and as an Implement.

Of course, when used as an Implement you must be able to use your class powers. I can accept that these can't be used for the weapon-as-weapon, limiting you to the basic melee attack unless you have other options (such as multiclassing).

As I understand it, the reason you'd want to wield a weapon (apart from purely fluff reasons, such as "it looks cool") is to get an implement but with item powers/properties from magic weaponry. However; i'm not sure that is worth paying for (with a feat or otherwise).

 

[dcviana]

By RAW, when you use an implement you add the item bonus to your attack and damage with a power with the "Implement" keyword. When you use a weapon you add the proficiency AND the item bonus to your attack and the item bonus to the damage when using powers with the "Weapon" keyword.

I don't know any powers that have both the weapon and the implement keyword, so it's simply a matter of what power you are currently using.

If you have a pact blade and is using a power with the implement keyword, you add the item bonus of the pact blade to your attack and damage with the power. If you use the pact blade with a power with the weapon keyword, you add the proficiency bonus of the light blade (if you are proficient with it) and the item bonus of the pact blade to you attack and the item bonus to the damage.

 

[CapnZapp]

By RAW, when you use an implement you add the item bonus to your attack and damage with a power with the "Implement" keyword. When you use a weapon you add the proficiency AND the item bonus to your attack and the item bonus to the damage when using powers with the "Weapon" keyword.

I don't know any powers that have both the weapon and the implement keyword, so it's simply a matter of what power you are currently using

Yes, but when an Infernal Warlock uses an implement he also adds his Con modifier. When he uses the implement as a weapon he must instead use his Str modifier (because that's what the basic melee power says)

What's needed is a way to use Con for attacks and damage no matter in which way the implement/weapon is used. (At least for me to feel it's worth the trouble)

Is there any feat that does this, or is there any powers that allow it? Short of multiclassing, that is.

 

[RedBeardJim]

What's needed is a way to use Con for attacks and damage no matter in which way the implement/weapon is used. (At least for me to feel it's worth the trouble)

Is there any feat that does this, or is there any powers that allow it? Short of multiclassing, that is.

The Melee Training feat in PH2 allows you to choose an ability other than Strength for making melee attacks. I think it only applies to melee basic attacks, but I could be wrong.

 

[Flipguarder]

I think the ONLY combat benefit you get from using a dagger as an implement is the ability to use it for opportunity attacks. Otherwise dagger implements would be the only ones ever worth using.

Maybe I'm wrong, it just seems like you could get really broken if you get to make attacks with every power warlocks use.

 

[cdrcjsn]

The FAQ allows feats like Eladrin Soldier and Weapon Focus:Longsword to be used with weapons when they are used as in implement.

So if you have the Nimble Blade feat, a dagger implement and are attacking with combat advantage, then yes, you get a +1 bonus to hit.

You definitely get the enhancement bonus, crit bonus damage and properties of weapons when used as in implement (explicitly stated in the FAQ).

It's debatable whether you can use the other powers of a magic weapon (like the flame weapon ability to turn attacks into fire). It makes sense that should be able to according to how the wording in the various rulebooks are stated (both PHB and PHB2), but I've still encountered table variation on this.

Likewise, it currently looks like class abilities that require a specific weapon can also be used when using a weapon as an implement (rogue sneak attack, daggermaster crit bonus, etc).

Most people don't seem to be aware of it, but the above rules also apply to wizards using staff implements (i.e. they can wield a +2 Frost staff if they want to, both as a weapon and as an implement).

 

[eriktheguy]

Huh?

Oops, I forget to mention the nimble blade feature.