Weapons as special effects

[Anabstercorian]

Will save or Shaken, that's my advice. And giving a weapon Save or Unconscious on EVERY BLOW is still completely broken.

 

[DanMcS]

I'd been wondering about changing all of the qualities with saves to be 'standard" DCs: 10 + ability mod + char level, or something along those lines. The flaw in incapacitating just highlights why. Dan McS: any particular reason you used save DCs based on damage, instead of the standard formula?

There's a feat like it, Awesome Blow, which gives you a reflex save vs damage dealt or be knocked back 10 feet. This isn't a spell-like ability (to have DC 10 + ability mod + 1/2 hit dice), it was supposed to be something based on damage, so that was the mechanic I wanted.

Yeah, now that i think about it, demoralizing is too powerful, since it basically doubles your damage. Hmmm... i like it conceptually, does D20 System have anything like "morale damage" built in? I suppose i could just fudge something with a save and a -1 on future rolls for some length of time.

You could have a will save vs damage dealt (heh) or suffer the effects of the frightened condition, or maybe shaken.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Okay, we've got some issues here.

One: Awesome blow requires the user to do two important things to use it. First, it must be used as a standard action - that prevents it from being used in every attack of a full-attack action. Yours activates on every attack. Second, the user suffers a -4 penalty to attack when using it.

Two: Awesome blow moves you back 10 feet, possibly doing an additional 1d6 damage. Incapacitating Blow knocks you unconscious and leaves you vulnerable to coup de grace.

THIS IS BAD.

I'd make Incapacitating Blow an entirely separate feat, personally...

 

[DanMcS]

Okay, we've got some issues here.

One: Awesome blow requires the user to do two important things to use it. First, it must be used as a standard action - that prevents it from being used in every attack of a full-attack action. Yours activates on every attack. Second, the user suffers a -4 penalty to attack when using it.

That's a reasonable point.

Two: Awesome blow moves you back 10 feet, possibly doing an additional 1d6 damage. Incapacitating Blow knocks you unconscious and leaves you vulnerable to coup de grace.
THIS IS BAD.
I'd make Incapacitating Blow an entirely separate feat, personally...

Meh. I didn't write that one, woodelf did. Convince him

 

[woodelf]

Okay, we've got some issues here.

One: Awesome blow requires the user to do two important things to use it. First, it must be used as a standard action - that prevents it from being used in every attack of a full-attack action. Yours activates on every attack. Second, the user suffers a -4 penalty to attack when using it.

Two: Awesome blow moves you back 10 feet, possibly doing an additional 1d6 damage. Incapacitating Blow knocks you unconscious and leaves you vulnerable to coup de grace.

THIS IS BAD.

I'd make Incapacitating Blow an entirely separate feat, personally...

OK, two ways to go at this:
First, i really like the idea of being able to knock someone out. So, within this weapon-quality system, and keeping in mind that you won't be getting any access to it 'til BAB +15, how would you implement a chance-of-KO quality?
Second, let me try toning down the Incapacitating quality to keep the flavor, but make it less deadly: (A) does an extra d8 of subdual damage (on top of the regular damage)--you're basically trading off one die of lethal damage for a die of subdual, roughly. It could be more complicated mechanically, and exactly equal the loss of lethal damage for whatever step you're going down, but that's probably excessive. And it could probably be d10 subdual, to reflect the generally-less-lethal impact, and still be balanced. (B) KO % chance equal to half the damage? Fort save DC = 10 + half BAB + Str mod? (C) like massive damage: if the attack does >X damage, make a Fort save DC 15?

Oh, and along those lines, Paralyzing should perhaps be toned down a bit--a paralyzed opponent is only slightly better than unconscious. maybe just Fort DC 15? By the time we're talking BAB +10 (or +15--maybe move Paralyzing up to the Combat Mastery level), a DC 15 Fort should be pretty easy for equal-level opponents.

For both of these, i have no problem with them generally not being useful on equal-level opponents. I see what you're saying--in D20 System, incapacitating someone is pretty powerful--but i think they fulfill their flavor role just fine if they're only useful on mooks. Frex, a 16th level fighter being able to wade through a sea of 3rd-level mooks, and KO 3-4 in one round (rather than killing them) seems perfectly reasonable. The problem with the powers as they are right now is that saves don't scale anywhere near like damage does. So something needs to be changed.

As for Demoralizing: i'm thinking go with the Will save or shaken (or maybe something a little tougher, like frightened) makes perfect sense. You're right that almost doubling damage (it actually works out to about x1.5, once you figure in the step-down you're taking to use the quality) is too much, compared to the other qualities.

oh, one other thing to keep in mind: don't let the top end of the scale scare you. In general, non-crit damage isn't gonna get much above 25-30: Large 15th-level PC, Combat Mastery, heavy weapon, knocking crit down to x2, is 6d8 damage, or average 27+Str. And that's a pretty extreme PC, for any level. Anything more than that is either a seriously bad-*** warrior, or a giant, or something, and maybe it *should* be possible for them to KO in one blow. I'm not sure. Racking up subdual damage might still be a better way to go. I'm just tossing this out there.

 

[woodelf]

There's a feat like it, Awesome Blow, which gives you a reflex save vs damage dealt or be knocked back 10 feet. This isn't a spell-like ability (to have DC 10 + ability mod + 1/2 hit dice), it was supposed to be something based on damage, so that was the mechanic I wanted.

So, have you had a chance to take a look at what i did? I took your idea and ran with it, and i'd love to know whether you think i polished it or butchered it. Also, how'd you like to provide a copyright entry and OGC declaration so i can reuse this formally and release it for others to build on (or butcher)?

 

[DanMcS]

OK, two ways to go at this:
First, i really like the idea of being able to knock someone out. So, within this weapon-quality system, and keeping in mind that you won't be getting any access to it 'til BAB +15, how would you implement a chance-of-KO quality?

snip

Racking up subdual damage might still be a better way to go. I'm just tossing this out there.

Yep, you got it right, there. In D&D, you knock someone out in combat by doing enough damage (subdual or otherwise) to reduce their hps below zero. You shouldn't sidestep that mechanic.

You could have various qualities that stun people, though, or like was mentioned earlier, cause them to be shaken, panicked, or whatever.

Regarding slapping an OGL on this thing, I'm in the process of moving and I'm typing on another person's computer right now, so it will probably be sunday or monday before I get a chance to do that.

 

[Quickleaf]

Dan and Woodelf - I'm loving your rules! And thanks for the pdf too!
I'd be interested in running a test-run combat on WebRPG or another program to give them a try. To me, it looks like they really rely on miniature combat and a tactical grid, i.e. the whole Attack of Opportunity system. Which is a little strange, because these are mean to be more cinematic...

Anyhow, I would host a quick 2 hour combat if anyone is interested in trouble-shooting them. These rules really, really appeal to me, and will probably see use in my games once they've been tested out. Thanks again!

 

[woodelf]

Dan and Woodelf - I'm loving your rules! And thanks for the pdf too!
I'd be interested in running a test-run combat on WebRPG or another program to give them a try. To me, it looks like they really rely on miniature combat and a tactical grid, i.e. the whole Attack of Opportunity system. Which is a little strange, because these are mean to be more cinematic...

Anyhow, I would host a quick 2 hour combat if anyone is interested in trouble-shooting them. These rules really, really appeal to me, and will probably see use in my games once they've been tested out. Thanks again!

I've been actually using these rules, as they evolve, for the last several weeks. We never use a battlemat or miniatures for combat--occasionally i might do a quick sketch and use some spare dice to represent something when exploring a room, but not during combats.

edit: all of which is not to say that i wouldn't be keen to hear the results of a test-run combat to check out any changes i've made, and see how things actually run. I've got a sub-5th-level group, so, needless to say, i 'm working on theory, not practice, when it comes to balancing the high-level qualities.

Why do you see these as being any more dependent on either a battle mat or AoOs than the standard rules? None of the qualities are either dependent on AoOs, nor provoke them. What am i missing?

Of course, i really need to simplify the AoO rules, too, to their essence: you do something that takes your attention off the fight, or puts you in a situation where the other guy can reach you, and you can't reach him, you provoke an AoO. And that's it. Still not sure whether reach should give you an AoO when someone engages, disengages, or both. I'm inclined to go with the former, only, because it represents fending, and then when you're badly hurt you can retreat safely.

Oh, and, at this point, i still haven't figured out what to do about incorporating armor use into the system. Bounced some ideas off the guys last night, and we didn't really make any progress.

 

[woodelf]

OK, few minor updates, incorporating the suggestions from folks here, plus hopefully fixing the "paralyzing" quality--maybe it needs to be renamed, now. And made all the save DCs consistent and level-based, rather than damage-based--as flavorful and "realistic" as basing them on the damage is, i think it's too prone to breaking the system, since saves just don't scale up very quickly. Which is really too bad. A couple other minor tweaks to things like the excised feats list (i'm putting Paralyzing Blow back in as a feat, since that effect is gone from the qualities, frex).

Oh, two thoughts on styles: first, you could rephrase all quality prerequisites in terms of the style, rather than light/one-handed/heavy, or just stack style prerequisities on top for some qualities. Second, if the styles are to be given any more prominence/influence in the system, another style should be added: shield and pole-arm. It's too common historically to leave out, or require a feat just to use.