Weapons of Legacy preview

[GoodKingJayIII]

-3 to all attacks (for a weapon?! granted, it does gain +4 enhancement, which makes up for most of this. . . )

-2 to all saves (poor will save just got worse)

-2 to max hp (negligible, admittedly, to most combat classes)

permanent loss of 18 skill points (assuming you find it early and keep it). Note that since skill points cannot be gained retroactively (such as when Int increases at level 4, etc) this loss truly is permanent - even if the weapon is lost. Most combat classes already have poor skill point total.

Awww, poor babies, you mean they have to pay a price to be able to cast fireball? I think I hear a violin somewhere.....

I know you're just kidding, but in all seriousness I don't think the cost is the issue. Rather, my problem is how the cost is paid. It's going to require more bookkeeping and it appears downright awkward. As has been said a few times on this thread, there are other ways that characters can pay for legacy weapon powers. Losing attack bonus, save bonus, hit points, and skill points is just really weird. I can understand why it strikes people the wrong way.

What happens when a character is relieved of the weapon? Do they still have all those penalties? Or does weapon advancement impose a "negative level" kind of mechanic, where the character is restored to normal once the object is removed. Are players with legacy weapons going to require two character sheets? One with possession of the weapon and one without?

Obviously I'm using extreme examples. I'm confident the book will explain some of the questions I've asked, but it's still a concern. The mechanics we've seen don't leave a lot of wiggle room, and I'm worried that the cost will be more an annoyance than a balancing factor.

 

[RichGreen]

Hi,

I'm not sure about how the personal cost rules will work, but the preview sword Desert Wind got me interested in a book I wasn't remotely interested in before. Very cool.

Cheers


Richard

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Sah-weet! I'll be picking this up at GenCon for sure!

 

[Ace]

I am going to pass on this one -- I don't like the stats as resource thing --

Anyway it is easier to just give them item early and come up with a gold value for its kewl magic powers. The players can than unlock bits as they level up and the "suggested GP per level increases

 

[Campbell]

Although I'm not too keen on the particulars of the mechanics, the fluff in the preview was excellent. I'm definitely going to pick this one up, and perhaps arrive at xp costs for the legacy rituals.

 

[Silveras]

Although I'm not too keen on the particulars of the mechanics, the fluff in the preview was excellent. I'm definitely going to pick this one up, and perhaps arrive at xp costs for the legacy rituals.

I have been thinking about that, because Oriental Adventures (and the Leveled Weapons article in the Dragon around the same time) presented an XP-price based system for similar effects. I think I understand why that really doesn't work, at least not without more house-ruling to fix the house-ruling.

In 3.0, characters gained XP from an encounter based on the average party level. In 3.5, each character gains XP based on his/her level, instead. So, in 3.0, if a character paid XP to do something (like a Samurai increasing the powers of his Ancestral Daisho), it was a permanent cost. In 3.5, as soon as the character falls behind the rest of the party, s/he begins earning more XP from the encounters, and catches up.

Now, Unearthed Arcana uses a system to remove Level Adjustments based on paying XP, which would seem to be a counter-argument. However, that generally is used to "buy off" LA factors after the abilities are no longer a significant boost in the character's power relative to the other PCs.

In the case of these Weapons of Legacy, based on the sample, it seems the weapons "keep on giving", and the powers granted get better as the character climbs in levels. A character does not have to unlock any; the weapons are still pretty potent without the legacy effects (again, based on the sample). Simply paying a one-time XP cost would soon be "corrected" by some more play.

That, I believe, is why the simple mechanism of XP costs was not used. It does not work for powers that keep increasing as you level up. Looking to Unearthed Arcana for another comparison, I would say these Weapons of Legacy are more like the Bloodline abilities, and the costs (attack penalty, save penalty, skill points lost) are similar to the effects of the Bloodline Levels ("skipped" levels, +0 BAB, +0/+0/+0 saves, +0 skill points), taken 1, 2, or 3 times depending on the strength of the bloodline.

 

[Nightfall]

Good work Silveras.

At the moment while I'm not keen on hindering the PCs THAT much, I do think some mechanic needs to be used not only to increase the weapon's power AND keep it from being overpowered, but nerfing a character (even just a straight warrior/fighter) with loss of skill points...seems harsh. The loss of HP I can deal with, especially if I can counter it with increases and/or Ability drain that isn't affected by normal means.

But yeah I'll get it primarily for fluff purposes rather than mechanics. At least that's my initial reaction.

That might change once I acquire this book.

 

[Marshall]

I have been thinking about that, because Oriental Adventures (and the Leveled Weapons article in the Dragon around the same time) presented an XP-price based system for similar effects. I think I understand why that really doesn't work, at least not without more house-ruling to fix the house-ruling.

Actually, those ideas were just ridiculously expensive for what you got out of the enhancements. When we tried to use them, it just came out that no-one tried to level their weapons. You were always better off using the XP to gain your next level.
The most obvious solution is that the swords are wealth. Once they are counted as such and the character kept at an appropriate wealth level, then it really doesnt matter HOW the sword was obtained.

In the case of these Weapons of Legacy, based on the sample, it seems the weapons "keep on giving", and the powers granted get better as the character climbs in levels. A character does not have to unlock any; the weapons are still pretty potent without the legacy effects (again, based on the sample).

They are? I think thats the point that is being made on the WotC boards. Desert Wind, at least, isnt a very 'Legendary' weapon. +4 Defending Fiery Burst Scimitar of Dexterity +6 with a handful of (very low end)Intelligent weapon properties doesnt deserve the paperwork, chart searching, page flipping, character penalizing properties that this weapon entails.

That, I believe, is why the simple mechanism of XP costs was not used. It does not work for powers that keep increasing as you level up. Looking to Unearthed Arcana for another comparison, I would say these Weapons of Legacy are more like the Bloodline abilities, and the costs (attack penalty, save penalty, skill points lost) are similar to the effects of the Bloodline Levels ("skipped" levels, +0 BAB, +0/+0/+0 saves, +0 skill points), taken 1, 2, or 3 times depending on the strength of the bloodline.

Bloodline is a good description. If they are all like this, than you are essentially gaining an LA as you level up. Does anyone honestly think that Desert Wind is worth a +3 LA?

Nice idea, I might use some of the backstories(if I actually do more than leaf thru), but DW had better be the WORST item in the book or there is going to be a lot of PO'd customer out there.

 

[Nightfall]

Well they can't be more PO'd then the guys that bought Arms and Equipment Guide.

I know I wasn't too happy with what was given there.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

I am really looking forward to this book. Like most people here I find the descriptions fantastic and the ideas very interesting, although I too, am curious as to the rationale behind some of those Personal Costs.

At 20th-level the swords value is roughly 200,000 GP (or slightly over it).

However, seemingly you have to pay 55,200 GP to unlock all its powers. Also you seem to accrue penalties equal to 12 feats (or 8 feats depending on how you rate skill bonuses).

...now heres the science part, bear with me:

200,000 GP is 15th-level PC wealth. Converting that to feats (using my CR/EL system) gives us 15 feats.

Applying the 55,200 GP costs gives us essentially 14th-level PC wealth = 14 feats. If you then gain feat penalties equivalent to 8 feats (being generous and using how I rate skill bonuses) then you are left with:

15 feats -1 (GP costs), -8 (negative penalties) = +6 feats.

So the sword is probably only 2/5ths as powerful as its powers suggest, due to its penalties.

So although it might seem like you are gaining a powerful weapon, the net effect is actually pretty weak.

Also I don't understand the rationale behind giving a weapon an Attack Penalty, I mean isn't that counter productive?

I would suggest, on the evidence of this one example that you could easily abandon all the Personal Costs (with the exception of the ritual gp costs which make sense).

Nevertheless, I will still definately be buying the book, the personal costs are not intrusive and seem very easy to ignore.