Weapons of Legacy preview

[Marshall]

Well they can't be more PO'd then the guys that bought Arms and Equipment Guide.

I know I wasn't too happy with what was given there.

All too true.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I would suggest, on the evidence of this one example that you could easily abandon all the Personal Costs (with the exception of the ritual gp costs which make sense).

Nevertheless, I will still definately be buying the book, the personal costs are not intrusive and seem very easy to ignore.

Considering that the "Personal Costs" aren't mentioned anywhere in the actual text, I totally missed them. Didn't see them at all and I bet that it would have been just fine if I did.

I mean please--DC 13+Cha mod for a Fireball at 15th level?

It's typical that WotC come out with something neat and then overprice it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there VirgilCaine!

Considering that the "Personal Costs" aren't mentioned anywhere in the actual text, I totally missed them. Didn't see them at all and I bet that it would have been just fine if I did.

They are not in the text, they are in the table.

I mean please--DC 13+Cha mod for a Fireball at 15th level?

It might be better if the gained powers were equal to spells available at that level, eg. at 15th-level you could have an enlarged delayed blast fireball, or an empowered, widened fireball.

But remember the abilities within the weapon are not meant to make the wielders spellcasting equal to wizards, simply give them more options.

It's typical that WotC come out with something neat and then overprice it.

Its kinda weird how arbitrary and imposing the personal costs are, given that the weapon is not overpowering without them at the prescribed levels.

 

[Nightfall]

Krusty!!!

Nice to see my favorite epic level man involved!

Anyway I do agree, the Attack penalty seems more than a bit excessive. I mean if they want a balance, I'd take out like an ability score drain as I stated and maybe a permanent HP loss. But all those things? No way. That's just way too much.

I'd be interested to see what you can come up with in comparision Krusty mate.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Perhaps for a one -off item of evil origins this makes sense from a story perspective, but I hope this example isn't representative of the mechanic overall. I mean, did King Arthur have to lose knowledge and become less skillful of a warrior because he wielded Excalibur?

This argument seems to conflate several things. First, Excalibur doesn't seem to be the kind of weapon to grow with the wielder -- it just seems to be the +5 Kingship Blade and that's really the end of it. So other than "winning it as treasure," no, Arthur didn't have to pay a price. In D&D terms, that price is entirely in that weapon, instead of getting something else (gold, gems, art, magic wands, magic girldes, whatever).

Even if Excalibur *was* the sort of weapon that grew with the wielder, it could certainly be argued that Arthur paid a "off-stage" mechanical sacrifice. He couldn't wield magic like Merlin, after all -- he instead gained powers with his weapon.

However, the preview kinda put me off a bit, as it seems to put forth the idea that game/story logic might have to take a back seat to mechanical balance.

From what I can tell, these weapons are meant to be your main weapon as you gain levels, not, as it may seem, as pure storytelling devices. That latter role is best served by artifacts, which are "dangerous magic" incarnate, not part and parcel of a character's power.

Rather, my problem is how the cost is paid. It's going to require more bookkeeping and it appears downright awkward. As has been said a few times on this thread, there are other ways that characters can pay for legacy weapon powers. Losing attack bonus, save bonus, hit points, and skill points is just really weird. I can understand why it strikes people the wrong way.

I can agree with this. It is weird. It is different. And it could've been otherwise....like Ace says:

Anyway it is easier to just give them item early and come up with a gold value for its kewl magic powers. The players can than unlock bits as they level up and the "suggested GP per level increases

But I do think Silveras put it best:

I would say these Weapons of Legacy are more like the Bloodline abilities, and the costs (attack penalty, save penalty, skill points lost) are similar to the effects of the Bloodline Levels ("skipped" levels, +0 BAB, +0/+0/+0 saves, +0 skill points), taken 1, 2, or 3 times depending on the strength of the bloodline.

And that's why I don't really have a problem with it. I guess I could get wiggy and just put in "Legacy Levels" that work pretty much exactly like the Bloodline levels....

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I would be amazed if the prestige class in this book didn't burn off most of the penalties associated with the weapon in return for taking a character out of their normal progression. Which means (if true) players have a choice about what sort of penalty they want to deal with.

 

[frankthedm]

I like it the books concept and mechanics, and if the bean counters think it is not work it because they think magic item value = G.U.R.P.S. charater points, *blank* em.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

I like it the books concept and mechanics, and if the bean counters think it is not work it because they think magic item value = G.U.R.P.S. charater points, *blank* em.

Never played GURPS, I've never even touched a book for it, and I'm not to thrilled with the way it looks like you have to pay for the weapon in question. Nor do I think I'm the only one in that nook so what would you say to me?

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

I would be amazed if the prestige class in this book didn't burn off most of the penalties associated with the weapon in return for taking a character out of their normal progression.

Might be some truth to that but even PrC are notorious for burning feats and skills to get into it but we will have to wait and see.

Which means (if true) players have a choice about what sort of penalty they want to deal with.

In which case I don't think it would be so bad.

 

[Cheiromancer]

At 20th-level the swords value is roughly 200,000 GP (or slightly over it).

However, seemingly you have to pay 55,200 GP to unlock all its powers. Also you seem to accrue penalties equal to 12 feats (or 8 feats depending on how you rate skill bonuses).

...now heres the science part, bear with me:

200,000 GP is 15th-level PC wealth. Converting that to feats (using my CR/EL system) gives us 15 feats.

Applying the 55,200 GP costs gives us essentially 14th-level PC wealth = 14 feats. If you then gain feat penalties equivalent to 8 feats (being generous and using how I rate skill bonuses) then you are left with:

15 feats -1 (GP costs), -8 (negative penalties) = +6 feats.

So the sword is probably only 2/5ths as powerful as its powers suggest, due to its penalties.

So although it might seem like you are gaining a powerful weapon, the net effect is actually pretty weak.

Also I don't understand the rationale behind giving a weapon an Attack Penalty, I mean isn't that counter productive?

I would suggest, on the evidence of this one example that you could easily abandon all the Personal Costs (with the exception of the ritual gp costs which make sense).

Nevertheless, I will still definately be buying the book, the personal costs are not intrusive and seem very easy to ignore.

I don't agree with your analysis. If it is worth a little over 200 000 gp (and I think this is a fair value- maybe 260 000?), then since 200 000 gp is equal to the difference in wealth between 19th and 20th level, it is worth about a feat. To make up the "little bit more" you could spend the 55,200 gp. So 55,200 plus a "legacy feat" to master Desert Wind. Sacrificing saves, attack bonuses, etc.,... that's too much.

Look at it this way; say it were possible for a character to invest a feat so that his wealth was that of a character 1 level higher. He spends the feat, and with his extra wealth buys a defending flaming burst scimitar with various special powers. As he goes up levels he spends a little wealth every so often to boost the plus on his weapon, give it an extra power, and so on. Just enough to stay approximately equal to his comrades. At the end of it all, he has Desert Wind at the cost of a feat and maybe 50 or 60 thousand gp.

But I really can't see it being worth 15 feats. 1 feat, yes. You could make an argument for 2, since it grants a bonus feat. But no more than that.