Weapons

[Sadrik]

Isn't a spear just a dagger on a stick?

I hope the 4e weapon list takes the following factors into account when developing their weapon list. Weapon damage should have the following factors:
overall size of weapon + force wielded/shot + relative impact area of weapon

So in mechanical terms:
size the weapon is made for + Strength or mechanical strength + relative danger of the weapon

Examples:
Medium sized longsword
Size +0, + wielder's STR mod, + 1d8
Huge sized longsword
Size +4, + wielder's STR mod, + 1d8
Small sized crossbow
Size -2, + virtual STR +4, + 1d4
Medium sized Spear/pike/dagger
Size +0, + wielder's STR, + 1d4 (The spear and pike have reach and can be set for a charge the dagger should have negative reach- whatever mechanically that means)

(Also, in my examples I used the size modifier as +2 or -2 for each category period)

Note also that all of these mechanics would be "under the hood". A huge longsword would be listed at 1d8+4+STR and the small crossbow would be 1d4+2

 

[BASHMAN]

Hmmm... So here we go. How about a simple points based mechanic that allows people to make up new weapons.

Damage: 1d3 = -2 points
1d4 = -1 pt
1d6 = 0 pts
1d8 = 1pt
1d10 = 2pts
1d12 / 2d6 = 3pts

Size: Tiny +2 pts
Small = +1 pt
Medium = 0 pts
Large = -2 pts

Crit: x2 = 0pts
Crit x3 = 1pt
Crit x4 = 2pts
Crit 19 x2 = 1pt
Crit 18 x2 = 2pts
Crit 19 x3 = 4pts

Simple weapons = 0 pts
Martial = 2pts
Exotic = up to 4pts

Now an even cooler thing to do w/ this is add "weapon mastery rules" where a fighter gets to add a pt every 3 levels to a weapon of choice.

So a longsword by the system is a medium martial weapon doing 1d8 x2 19 crit (2 pts)
A greatsword is a large martial weapon doing 2d6 x2 19 crit (2 pts)
A club is a medium simple weapon doing 1d6 x2 crit

Say a fighter has 3 pts of weapon mastery. He could choose to improve his longsword to:
2d6 Dmg, 18x2 Crit by 9th level. I think that is a lot more flavorful & fun that +1 hit +2 damage...

 

[Gort]

Isn't a spear just a dagger on a stick?

I think you're doing one of the most ancient and ubiquitous weapons a grave disservice. Keep in mind, a spear has a lot of advantages. Reach (allowing you to attack from safety), a straight thrust (which is hard to parry), the fact that once the point is in an enemy they're very unlikely to be able to advance on you, and the advantage against charges and cavalry.

I think all four of those advantages are represented very poorly in D&D (when was the last time you saw someone actually brace against a charge, for instance?) so I think the spear at least deserves a bump up to a D6.

By your "size of weapon end means bigger damage" theory, bullets wouldn't even rate a dice roll, they'd only do 1 damage.

 

[NewfieDave]

By your "size of weapon end means bigger damage" theory, bullets wouldn't even rate a dice roll, they'd only do 1 damage.

Not if they had a very high "mechanical strength" rating.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

By your "size of weapon end means bigger damage" theory, bullets wouldn't even rate a dice roll, they'd only do 1 damage.

Not true: Sadrik mentioned that the "force wielded/shot" is also a factor.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I think those weapon stats are unnecessarily complicated, and your attempts at making things more realistic are incomplete, resulting in stats that are even more unrealistic than the 3E stats.

Things such as center of balance, leverage, slashing vs. stabbing, weapon weight and construction, etc are all incredibly important, but are not taken into account into your design. As such, your design is only focusing on a small part of the picture.

An example of this is how you compare a spear to a dagger on a stick. Certainly, in construction of the blade itself, this is true. However, the stick makes a huge difference in leverage and balance. If you compare the maximum speed and energy in which a person can swing a knife, and the speed and energy of a swinging spear-tip, you will find that the spear, due to a wider arc and greater impulse, will move a lot faster and carry a lot more energy.

Really, the best way to implement weapons is just to give them a very generalized set of stats, and try to avoid focusing too much on the specifics. Otherwise, you get bogged down wondering how to implement the countless variables of weapons, and start missing things.

I actually like the approach they seem to be taking in 4E. There is no indication that we are going to see a big difference in weapon stats, but more weapons are going to be differentiated by fighter talents and maneuvers. In other words, the weapons are going to be differentiated based on how they are used, rather than their basic features. I think that is the best possible approach.

 

[Stogoe]

The points systems above remind me of the 'secret'/derived 3e weapon creation system.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I think the existing system works pretty well. I don't really want realism ... I want something that is easy and balanced to play in the game and doesn't result in obviously optimal weapons so that everyone is running around with a longsword.

 

[KingCrab]

Agreed. If they can make weapons balanced enough so that people will want to use many of them, then they've done a good job as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Sadrik]

Agreed. If they can make weapons balanced enough so that people will want to use many of them, then they've done a good job as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed, but one of the current things in 3e that imho been a problem with the weapon list is that certain weapons don't have a bonus to them- like crossbows. They should. Just like any weapon they should have a built in mechanical bonus. When a sword strikes harder because it gets bonuses added in from STR and technically a crossbow is all about making this thing fly fast with a lot of force behind it- it gets a little strange.

Also, from a mechanical point of view the crossbow rule ripples down to all other d20 properties and their non-str powered weapons: firearms.

I fully think that the damage of a crossbow quarrel would be almost non-existent if you threw it but using a crossbow it is actually effective.

Also adding in the size mod as a flat bonus makes it a lot simpler as you dont have to calculate the shift in dice etc. Large longsword does 2d8, 1d12 or 2d6??? No. It does 1d8+2+STR period.